-DATE- 19850216 -YEAR- 1985 -DOCUMENT_TYPE- INTERVIEW -AUTHOR- F. CASTRO -HEADLINE- FIDEL CASTRO INTERVIEW WITH PBS MACNEIL -PLACE- HAVANA -SOURCE- HAVANA TELEVISION SVC -REPORT_NBR- FBIS -REPORT_DATE- 19850220 -TEXT- FIDEL CASTRO INTERVIEW WITH PBS' MACNEIL FL161528 Havana Television Service in Spanish 0130 GMT 16 Feb 85 -- FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY [Interview with President Fidel Castro by U.S. correspondent Robert MacNeil of the Public Broadcast Service's [PBS] "MacNeil, Lehrer Newshour," in Havana; date not given; questions in English with simultaneous translation into Spanish -- recorded] [Text] [MacNeil] Mr President, every time that you begin to talk of improving relations with the United States, Washington says show us deeds not words. What actions or deeds are you prepared to show to improve relations with the United States? [Castro] You are saying every time I speak of improving relations...actually, there have not been many times. But, I have read a few statements where they say they want deeds and not words. I think that is a style of speaking, I would say a style of a great power. I understand it is not easy for the United States to change its style. We are a small country, we cannot speak in those terms, but we are also a country with a great deal of dignity and no one can assume we are going to beg the United States for better relations. We have never done so and never will. We have put forth our positions. Our political positions are based on in-depth convictions and objective analyses, whether we speak of the international situation, or the situation of Central America, southern Africa, or of the very serious economic problems that currently exist and greatly affect the Third World; the dangers that affect peace are real, the risks are huge, there is an increasing number of persons aware of those risks and there is increasing concern about then. We are not trying to be believed or not, the essential thing is to see that what is said is based on convictions and analysis. When I speak with the Americans, I try to use reason and to get them to reason and use arguments; not simply to say we think this way but rather why we think this way. As I recently told some Americans, in the United States, there are many people with convictions, but not with ideas. There are obvious truths. I understand that in the United States there are a few obvious truths in the U.S. Constitution, it states obvious truths. However, in the United States many people really believe everything that is stated is an obvious truth. That is why I have said on many occasions that I have noticed convictions and not ideas. I do not intend for them to believe us but simply that they study our ideas and that they be analysed, an objective analysis of events. It is not a matter of faith or confidence, it is a matter of objectivity. [MacNeil] Let's go through an objective analysis. The State Department and the White House always say that there are three obstacles to improving the relations between Cuba and the United States: They are your allegiance to the Soviet Union, what they call subversions in this hemisphere, and a large number of your troops in Africa. Sometimes, they also mention human rights in Cuba. The White House mentioned human rights in Cuba this week again. Can we discuss each of these in detail? [Castro] Everything you want. [MacNeil] Starting with relations with the Soviet Union. Is there a formula through which you could keep your ties with the Soviet Union and improve relations with the United States? [Castro] Well, this is not a lot, if the United States believes there are three obstacles. I thought there were more. Now then, if we study these three types of obstacles, the first one, the relations we have with the Soviet Union, with the socialist countries, and with any other country are matters of our sovereignty, it can not be questioned, at least we are not willing to discuss it. This is something I have said frankly, if in order to improve our relations with the United States we have to give up our convictions and our principles, then the relations will not improve on those terms. If we are going to question our sovereignty, then they will not improve either. Relations between Cuba and the Soviet Union are based on the strictest respect for the independence and sovereignty of our country. We have friendly and close relations and those relations cannot be affected in order to improve relations with the United States. I believe the United States would not respect a country that would do such a thing. Countries that do those things are not respected. We are going to change either our flag or our ideas. Our relations with the Soviet Union and our friendship will continue unchanged. I say this with sincerity and it is important that it be understood. [MacNeil] On that very same topic. [Castro] Yes, correct. [MacNeil] I believe that Kenneth Skoug, the State Department's director of the Office of Cuban Affairs, has been here in Havana. [Castro] Yes. [MacNeil] Perhaps we can come back to that in a moment. In December, Skoug said in a speech what Cuba could not do and still retain Moscow's favor is to alter its fundamental commitment to unswervingly support Soviet policy. Is that right? [Castro] Would you repeat that? [MacNeil] Yes indeed, what Cuba could not do and still retain Moscow's favor is to alter its fundamental commitment to unswervingly support the Soviet policy. And my question is, isn't that unswerving support for Soviet policy the price of the Soviet aid that keeps the Cuban economy alive? [Castro] We [words indistinct] the Soviet Union. We share political principles. The Soviet Union is a socialist country, we are a socialist country. They have a political doctrine which is also our political doctrine. It is not only the political doctrine of the Soviets. Marx was not a Soviet, Engels was not a Soviet, Lenin was a Soviet. So the doctrine is common to Cuba, the USSR, and other revolutionary countries. It is based on principles and on the philosophical and political works of many thinkers and many people have participated in them. There are even people in the United States who are Marxists and Leninists. They were persecuted for that earlier but I do not think they are persecuted now. But because they are Marxists-Leninists, they might not have many possibilities to be promoted or access to public office or to private positions. [Words indistinct] common processes with the Soviet Union and in many international problems, we have a common position. That is, it is based on political ideas and principles. It is a friendly country, whose friendship we are not going to deny. We do not apologize for our friendship with them, because actually, we are not going to fight with our friends in order to make friends with our adversaries. That we will never do. The cooperation we receive from the Soviet Union is to a large extent based on principle. That is, the principles of socialism, and on the very principles of internationalism. These are the reasons we cooperate with dozens of countries in Africa, Asia, and even in Latin America. We cooperate with Nicaragua, for example, Guyana, we cooperated with Jamaica when Manley was in power. We cooperated with Grenada until the U.S. invasion. And we have cooperated with many countries with thousands of doctors, teachers, technicians and at times [words indistinct] military cooperation. Why? Because of a principle. And on no occasion did we impose conditions. The Soviets have never imposed conditions on us for their aid. They have never attempted to tell us what we should do, what we must do, with what countries we are to trade, with what countries we are to have relations. And we have neither asked them nor have we tried to indicate to them what they should do. We have trade and diplomatic relations with almost all the industrialized Western countries, with the exception of the United States. And we have not had to ask permission from anyone to do this. I do not know the origin of the idea that our relations with the Soviets are an obstacle and if someone thinks we are going to sell out or give up our flag or that we are going to change our minds, he is mistaken. Cuba is a country that cannot be bought. Countries that can be bought are simply not respected. [MacNeil] You say you don't know where that idea comes from. I think that the United States Government (?thinks) that economic dependence on Moscow makes you automatically part of the Soviet camp in having to agree to policies like the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. Would you, Fidel Castro, who values the independence and integrity of this country, would you alone have approved the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan if you had been free to make your own choice? [Castro] I will say something regarding the problems of relations of the Soviets and the Afghans. This is something it would be better to discuss with the Soviets and the Afghans. Regarding any international problem, we might be in agreement or disagreement with the Soviets. But we... [rephrases] The problems, the differences we might have on any issue, we discuss them with them. They also discussed them with us. We do not discuss them publicly. This is not the way we do things in our relations with them and with the other socialist countries. We do not make public points on which there might be disagreement. That is the line we follow. But we have our standards on many issues. Many times, we agree with the other socialist countries. And other times, we do not agree with them. But we do not discuss these matters in public. Those are not the standards of our relations. Not with the USSR or with other countries because we have relations with many countries, with Ethiopia, Angola, the Congo, Mozambique, Guinea, Nicaragua, Guyana, Panama. We might have disagreements with many of the countries with whom we have relations, but we do not discuss them publicly. That is not the standard we use in our relations with our friends, whether it be the Soviets, or any other socialist countries or any nonsocialist country or Third World country. That is the standard we follow. [MacNeil] Did you privately and personally approve of the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan? [Castro] No. When it was brought up at the United Nations, we clearly said that in that conflict, in that tremendous attack against the Soviet Union directed by the United States, we were not going to place ourselves on the side of the United States and so we were on the side of the Soviet Union. They are studying...[rephrases] We took that position because of this. [MacNeil] Is that not the point, that your friendship and dependence on the Soviet Union makes you part of their camp and therefore makes you take positions that Washington considers to be anti-American? [Castro] I tell you there was a moment much more crucial and difficult and much more important than anything that might have happened in many years. It was the crisis of October 1962. And we were not in agreement. We did not agree with the Soviet decision: and made it known publicly. It was not kept secret. We categorically and publicly told them that we were not in agreement with the final solution given to that crisis. We made this known publicly. We proposed five-point [solution]. This was the reason that our relations with the Soviets became sour (?over a period of time). At the time we believed we were in disagreement. Mainly, the reason was there were certain things related to Cuba such as the Guantnnamo Base, the economic blockade, the pirate attacks which, in my judgment, could have been discussed as part of the overall solution. In the end, after years had passed, we reached the conclusion that, even though that solution was not wholly satisfactory for us, however, in the end, it had avoided a war and, above all, it was a correct action. At the time, this action was much more important. We have declared this as part of history. We have always had the courage... As years have passed, we have reached the conclusion that our position was not the correct one at that time, and that the events have shown that the action taken was the best thing that could have occurred under those circumstances. The moment was so dangerous and intense that a solution could not be delayed because of minor details which could affect us but which were not as fundamental as what was being decided at the time, war or peace. You have determined this thing of dependence as (?pivotal). In today's world, in the economic field, no one is absolutely independent, not even the United States, Japan, or Western Europe. They depend on oil, raw materials. Many other countries need markets, trade. So no country is totally independent economically. The Soviets, our best market is the Soviet Union, buy the largest part of our products at highly stable and highly profitable prices for us. That trade is extremely useful as is the trade with other European socialist countries; GDR, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania. We have stable and profitable prices. There is where we place the largest part of our goods. We trade with China based on world market prices. From those countries we receive essential raw materials such as fuel, lumber, steel, chemical products, foodstuffs, equipment. So for us, it is very important. We are not going to give that up. Moreover, no country would give up the economic relations we maintain with the socialist countries. We do not maintain that type of relations with any capitalist country. For example, we maintain relations with Western Europe and Japan. How much does a bulldozer cost today? It costs four tines what it cost 20 years ago. How much are our export products worth today? The same or less than 20 years ago. Of course, that is the tragedy being experienced with coffee, cacao, minerals, all products being exported by the Third World. That is the problem of unequal trade, which constitutes a growing exploitation of Third World countries and one of the causes for underdevelopment and backwardness existing in the Third World. At least we have established a fair trade with socialist countries, and that is what we wish everyone in the Third World would have when a new international economic order comes into existence. [MacNeil] I would like to go back to the economy and the relations with the Soviet Union and how the United States sees them. Is it not true that your role in return for all the aid you get from the Soviet Union is a thorn in the side of the United States? [Castro] If that were true, we would not talk about improving relations with the United States. The role of a thorn would not be advantageous for us. In reality, this does not bring great benefits to us. We are based on a conviction. It is the need to struggle in our area, in Central America, and in the rest of the world. It is our duty to try to relax tensions and achieve peaceful relations in the world. I am saying this very sincerely, even though I am a revolutionary. I was, I am, and will always be. I will not change a single principle in exchange for 1,000 relations with 1,000 countries such as the United States. As a revolutionary, I have convictions and I analyze them. I think a lot about today's world problems. I believe the most important duty of any leader, of any politician, of any government which is responsible is to work for peace. This does not mean that changes will not continue to occur. They will continue to occur. According to that theory, what is convenient for us is not to have normal relations with the United States because it would be an extraordinary business and no one would be willing to give up such a business. [sentence as received] In reality, by proposing this, we demonstrate the weakness of that theory. [MacNeil] So you believe that you could have something approaching normal relations with the United States and the Soviet Union would still consider it in the Soviet Union's interest, to continue to subsidize you with $4 billion annually and forget the production problems in the sugar and nickel industries as well as other products you export to the Soviet Union, and allow you to have 200,000 barrels of oil daily? Will they continue to do all that if you have good relations with the United States? Do you believe that would be the case? [Castro] First of all, I have to express my disagreement with the subsidy theory. We do not see this as a subsidy. We export nickel, sugar, and citrus fruits as well as other products to the Soviet Union and many other countries. Our trade is maintained based on prices, not subsidies. That is a U.S theory. Well, that is good. [MacNeil] But the Soviet Union pays 30 cents for your sugar when the highest world market price would be 3 cents. Is that true? [Castro] Right. I will ask you a question. Twenty years ago, we bought oil at almost $2 per barrel, right? Now we pay, I cannot tell you the exact price per barrel, but it is around $25 or $26, approximately the world market price. Does that mean we are subsidizing the Soviet Union? And why? Because the Soviet Union instead of giving us that amount for each barrel pays us 30 cents per pound for sugar instead of 5 cents. Is that necessarily a subsidy? If we pay much more for other products and equipment than we did 20 years ago, why has it been said that we are subsidizing the Soviet Union? [as heard] [MacNeil] I don't know. I'm not in a position to argue that. Let me ask my question again in another way. Do you believe that the Soviet Union will continue to provide you with the aid and support that it does if you have good relations with the United States? [Castro] Look, our relations with the Soviet Union and the socialist countries are solid and based on principles and they have absolutely nothing to do with our economic and political relations with the United States. That is clear. Just as they have nothing to do with our relations with Japan, with Spain, with the FRG, with Italy, or with the United Kingdom. The United States considers itself to be the center of the world and in order to have relations with the United States it becomes necessary to fight with the rest of the world. In this sense, the United States is an exception; that is not exactly a rule. [as heard] Now then, our relations with the socialist nations are under discussion, even the relations we are going to have between 1986 and 1990 and between 1990 and 2000. The development plans, what we are going to export to them, what they are going to export to us, credits, and all the rest are being discussed and planned. These are firm plans. Everything else is a simplistic analysis. I will say one thing. The Soviet Union and the Soviet people have a great deal of affection and respect for Cuba. They have respect for Cuba because they admire us, as do other peoples, for Cuba's courage, Cuba's firmness, and its ability to resist for over 26 years the aggression, the economic blockade, and the hostility of the United States. They respect us for that. They admire us for that. Specifically, they admire us for our revolutionary positions and our positions of principle. That is the reason they respect us. And we are not going to change. [MacNeil] Would the Soviet Union like it if you had better relations with the United States, if the blockade perhaps were lifted, and the economic burden on the Soviet Union were shared or lessened? [Castro] In any case the United States is not going to pay us the same price for sugar as the Soviet Union does. It is not going to buy nickel and it is not going to have the kind of interchange and relations with us that we have with the socialist countries. We have not even thought about that and neither has the United States nor anyone else. No one is capable of thinking about it. Actually, the United States maintains its protectionist policy toward many Third World countries and in many cases, buys cacao, coffee, minerals and all its purchases at prices that are ruinous for the countries, let's say, with the sole exception of a certain amount of sugar that it buys at a price higher than the world market price to protect its own sugar industry. No capitalist country will ever be able to have the kind of economic relations with Third World countries that we have with the socialist countries. Of course, it would be an illusion for us to think economic relations with the United States would make up a decisive or important volume for our economy. That is, for us it is not even essential. We are presently one of the few countries in the world, if not the only one, that can think in 10-year terms, 15-year terms, 20-year terms about our economic development and the rate of that development, the direction that our considerable social development will take. We do not worry about the United States. We do not have to count on selling it even 1 ton of our products. We do not need it. Actually, if we say we are willing to work for peace and to diminish tension in the area, in other areas, and in the entire world, that would not be a problem of economic interest. They must get that idea out of their heads. It is a political problem or question and a matter of principle because of a conviction, which we understand to be our duty. Peace interests us, as it interests all nations. It also interests the United States. We are defending a common interest. But I believe we need to get rid of the idea that we have a need to trade with the United States. Everything we accomplished in the past 26 years we did without trading with the United States. And our future has been planned without considering trade with the United States. Now, I am going to give you another example. The Soviet Union has very good relations with the GDR, the USSR, Bulgaria, Poland, and other countries. It has also given those countries a great deal of aid. Also, most of those countries' trade has been with the Soviet Union, and those countries have diplomatic and trade relations with the United States. All those countries have relations. Now, as for whether or not the Soviet Union likes it actually, we have not asked the Soviet Union. We usually do not ask the Soviet Union's opinion of our international political and economic relations. But I know the Soviet Union well. And the policy followed by the Soviet Union would never be opposed to our developing these economic relations with the other capitalist countries, including the United States, because the United States has many allies: the United Kingdom, the FRG, Belgium, Holland, Italy. Why should Cuba be the exception? [MacNeil] In fact, is your relationship with the Soviet Union undergoing a subtle change? [Castro] Absolutely not. In reality, I believe they are at the best level, better than ever before. For example, the speech I made on energy, the speech I made before the students on international affairs and on the talks we were holding with the United States on immigration matters, the speech I made at year's end at the National Assembly, that is, the most recent speech I have made in which I have discussed all of these problems, economic, political, foreign policy, and economic problems, the daily PRAVDA devoted seven pages to each of those speeches, and two of them, the first two, were published in the NEW TIMES magazine, which has a circulation of millions in the Soviet Union and, in addition... [MacNeil, interrupting] They do not do that if they are cool, if they are feeling cool. [Castro] (Well, they did to it with two speeches in 1 week. It is important that speeches on economic and international affairs have been published in the most important magazine that they have. Millions of issues are published. It is published in 22 languages. I believe it is an unequivocal proof of the respect the Soviet Union feels for Cuba's positions and declarations. Let me repeat, four speeches in a period of 1 month, actually seven pages of the daily PRAVDA. Let me say something else, this is unusual, uncommon. I am responding to you very candidly. Our relations with them at this time are better than ever before. [MacNeil] Let met ask a question. Your foreign minister, Isidoro Malmierca, was just in Moscow talking with Foreign Minister Gromyko. He ended his talks and no communique was issued. He said there was nothing new to say. In the normal course of these relations, the normal practice, many more extraordinary things are said. Doesn't this indicate that there is strain between you two with respect to problems of the economy or something else? [Castro] What is that? The fact that there was no communique? I can explain that perfectly well. I have a responsibility in that because I have been struggling over a long period of time to suspend the practice of the communique. We fill our newspapers with long communiques every time a delegation visits our country, and many come here, such as ministerial delegations and high-level delegations. Actually, that is an opportunity for long communiques on all types of topics in the world. [Words indistinct] from friendly countries which have concrete problems in complex situations. If the communique includes all topics, then this could harm them. If it only covers just a few topics, it would also harm them because it could appear as if there was a cold attitude on a certain topic. I proposed that the system of communiques should be overcome. We have been doing precisely that with all countries, with all delegations. The last one was a visit by Malmierca to Guyana. A communique was issued there and was used by the Venezuelan Foreign Minister to protest that Malmierca had stated in the communique that Cuba supported Guyana's territorial integrity and independence. We have said that 20 times. But in recent times we have decided not to issue any more communiques. In the case you are referring to, the Soviets wanted to issue a communique and Malmierca told them we had decided not to issue any more communiques. Then Malmierca held a press conference. I believe the Soviets also spoke. It is very simple. There is no mystery in that. We have adopted the decision of not issuing communiques. [MacNeil] Is it not true that this year or last year, you approached the Soviet Union with the hope of receiving an increase in economic aid from them and you were told no, and that it would continue at the same level for the next 5 years? That is 20 billion rubles over 5 years, more or less the equivalent of $4 billion over 4 years? [as heard] But you had expected and sought more and were refused? [Castro] I do not know where that comes from. We cannot build any more factories than the ones we are building. We are building a nuclear power plant where 7,000 workers are employed, a new oil refinery where thousands work, the development of the nickel industry north of the island's eastern end employs nearly 15,000 workers in construction. We have more than 200,000 workers in construction projects and, practically, the manpower we have cannot handle any more construction projects. We do not need that aid. We cannot build any more than we are doing now. Why should we ask the Soviets for more? I do not know where that comes from. [MacNeil] I read it in the Western press. [Castro] So much is written in the West that I would recommend that you don't trust what you see in writing. We do not want any more, that is the truth. In the next 5 years, the goods we will receive from the Soviet Union, including fuel, equipment, and so on, will amount to about 20 billion rubles from 1986 to 1990. We will receive thousands of millions more from other socialist countries. And from the West we will also receive between $5 and $7 billion more. That is the value of our sugar, that is the price of Cuba's exports. Naturally, we also have some credits. In socialist countries and the Soviet Union, industrial investments, the large industrial investments are acquired through credits with a very low interest and a very long period of time to pay them back. We will receive around 20 billion in goods and equipment in general, including fuel, in the next 20 years. [as received] We can make our development plans... [MacNeil interrupting] Sir, to move on to the second point that Washington says is an obstacle to better relations, what the White House spokesman Larry Speakes called your subversion in this hemisphere. Let me quote you again Mr Skoug of the State Department: It is Cuba's striving with Soviet support to introduce Marxist-Leninist regimes in all the hemisphere that still lies at the heart of our differences. Would you comment on that? [Castro] Well, he could also accuse the pope of practicing subversion in Latin America and preaching Christianity and Catholicism. He has visited numerous countries, in fact recently he met with natives and said the land and the property titles had to be given to the natives and said schools for children were needed, jobs for workers and for the families, medicines and doctors for the sick, as well as food and housing. He said such things in an indigent neighborhood in Peru. He said it in peasant communities, everywhere. They can say the pope is trying to spread Catholicism, the gospel, and the Christian doctrine. Actually, it could be said that to ask for land for peasants and schools for children, and doctors, and food, something that has never happened in reality in centuries in this hemisphere, is subversive. We preach more or less the same thing and besides, it is what we have done in our country. So, we will continue being Marxists and socialists and we will always say our social system is more just. But we have said, because it is our conviction, the following and it is my answer to that: Cuba cannot export a revolution because revolutions cannot be exported and the economic, social, cultural, and historical factors which determine the outbreak of a revolution cannot be exported. The enormous Latin America foreign debt cannot be exported, the formulas applied by the IMF cannot be exported by Cuba, the unequal trade cannot be exported by Cuba. Underdevelopment and poverty cannot be exported by Cuba. That is why Cuba cannot export revolution. The ideas, of course, spread. They have always spread. Christianity was born in the Middle East. The Muslim religion was also born there. The ideas the United States practices today, its constitutional principles had emerged earlier in Europe prior to the French Revolution, from the philosophers, the encyclopedists. They were not even ideas which arose in the United States. Not even our languages, not English, or Spanish, or Portuguese is native, they came from Europe. Our culture came from Europe. Ideas spread. In fact, the European ideas came from Egypt, from other civilizations, from India, Greece, Rome. The present civil law is almost the same as Roman law. Ideas spread. So then, can we export a revolution? It is absurd, ridiculous, to say that revolutions can be exported. The United States cannot avoid them either. The United States accuses us of wanting to promote change. We would like to see changes. But changes will come whether the United States likes it or not, whether Cuba likes it or not. I could respond by saying that the United States wants to maintain an unjust social order which has brought the peoples of this hemisphere poverty, hunger, underdevelopment, illness, and the United States wants to maintain that. We could say the United States wants to stop changes. If we are accused of wanting to promote changes we can accuse the United States of wanting to stop them and of wanting to maintain an unjust social regime. But in reality, we can neither export a revolution nor can the United States avoid it. That is our point of view and my response to that type of simplistic argument which has no scientific or any other kind of support. It cannot be supported. [MacNeil] In supporting the Sandinist regime in Nicaragua militarily, is Cuba not helping to sustain and introduce a Marxist-Leninist regime? [Castro] In helping Nicaragua by giving them military support? Well, we are helping an independent country, a just revolution simply to defend itself. The United States has also sent its weapons to this hemisphere to other people. It sent weapons to Somoza, to Trujillo when Trujillo was in power, to Pinochet, to all the repressive countries of Latin America. Governments that murdered and tortured tens of thousands of people, governments that eliminated tens of thousands of people, they had no scruples in giving economic, financial, and military aid. Then with what moral arguments can our right to help Nicaragua be questioned and Nicaragua's right to receive that aid? I ask: Can the United States help the counterrevolutionary bands, provide weapons, explosives, to fight in Nicaragua, something that has cost the lives of thousands of people? And on the other hand, they can question Cuba's right to give and Nicaragua's right to receive economic and technical aid, and certain aid in military matters? [MacNeil] So you would not stop giving such aid as a condition of improving relations with the United States? [Castro] We will not make any unilateral decision on our relations and cooperation with Nicaragua. What we have said is that a negotiated political solution is possible in Central America. What we say is that we support the efforts of Contadora to find peaceful solutions for Central America. We support Contadora firmly and sincerely and believe there are peaceful, political solutions that are in the best interests of Nicaragua, Central America, and the United States. We are willing to struggle for this. Furthermore, we will fully respect the agreements reached. We will carry out to the letter agreements reached by Nicaragua within the Contadora framework. [MacNeil] How hopeful are you now that some political settlement can be reached in Central America? [Castro] I am absolutely convinced. I am quite well informed on all the work of Contadora, all the discussions, all the points [word indistinct] there, the U.S. and Nicaraguan positions; and I am absolutely convinced that it is possible to find formulas acceptable to all parties. I have that conviction. To achieve this, the United States must be willing to cooperate in finding a political solution. I believe that as long as the United States is convinced that it can destroy the Sandinist revolution from within, by combining the effect of the economic measures against Nicaragua with Nicaraguan economic difficulties and the actions of the counterrevolutionary bands; it will not be really willing to seek a political solution to the problems of Central America. If it believes it is going to destroy the revolution, why negotiate? Why reach agreements? Now then, when the United States becomes convinced that it is not going to achieve its goal and that the Nicaraguan revolution cannot be destroyed [words indistinct] because of the problems I mentioned. I believe they can face their economic problems with what they produce and with the economic aid they receive. If they manage it wisely, efficiently, they can face their economic problems. I am convinced of this. I am convinced they can defeat the bands and that the bands will never he able to defeat the people's Government of Nicaragua. [MacNeil] Excuse me. By "bands," do you mean what is called [words indistinct]? [Castro] Yes, the counterrevolutionary bands. I am convinced they will he defeated. They will be defeated and a situation will come about in which the United States will have no choice but to negotiate seriously to find a solution or invade Nicaragua. Since in my opinion a U.S. invasion of Nicaragua is inconceivable because it would be a grave mistake, terrible mistake, I do not believe the United States will ever make that mistake. I cannot affirm that they will not do so, but I do say, and I have explained this to the visiting legislators, that an invasion of a Latin American country is inconceivable given the present conditions in Latin America, the present crisis conditions, the sentiments of the Latin American peoples, and the era in which we are living. It would be catastrophic in political terms, in its political costs, but also in its cost of U.S. lives. [MacNeil] Would Cuba go to the aid of Nicaragua if the United States invaded Nicaragua? [Castro] What foolishness! You are talking with a small Caribbean nation, not a great power. The question that could be asked is: Can Cuba, faced with the military power of the United States, aid a small nation? And since our military forces are structured to defend the nation... [rephrases] I can tell you what will happen, what we will do if Cuba is attacked. But there is no real possibility that we can help a country attacked by the United States. This is reality, and they know it. The question is almost lacking in meaning. [MacNeil] How many troops does Cuba have in Nicaragua? [Castro] You said troops. [MacNeil] Military advisers. [Castro] We have no troops. We have military advisers, and I do not consider that I have the right to say there is this number or that. There is a number of advisers, instructors, and professors; many are instructors in schools, and professors too. There is a certain number, but do not consider that I have the right to say how many. You can ask the Nicaraguans that question, and if they want to answer they can. But I should not. [MacNeil] Excuse me. Under what circumstances would you bring them home? [Castro] If there is an agreement accepted by the Nicaraguans and that agreement says half of the advisers must be removed, we will remove one-half immediately. If it says two-thirds, we will remove two-thirds. If it says all, we will remove all. In fact, we need no verification. By virtue of our international norms when we commit ourselves to do something, we do it. Under no circumstances will we unilaterally make the decision to remove even one. Not one, two, or all of them. That must be decided by the Nicaraguans. It would not be honorable or honest for us to promise to carry out any withdrawal unilaterally. I think it would show a lack of friendship of respect, and of loyalty towards the Nicaraguans. If they reach an agreement... [rephrases] If you ask my opinion, I would favor an agreement for all foreign military advisers to leave Central America, and a formula to suspend all arms supplies to Central America. That is what I think. I thank this would even be the most proper agreement. Let the Central American nations solve their problems themselves, with the help of other Latin American nations. There is more to that. We will struggle for a political solution. We will not do it so that the United States will take it into consideration, or so that the United States will resume relations with us. We will struggle because we consider it to be our duty and in the interest of Nicaragua and the Central American peoples, that is to struggle in that direction. We will support the agreement reached and strictly fulfill the commitments derived therefrom. [MacNeil] Are you more hopeful as a result of the talks in Havana with Kenneth Skoug of the State Department, whom you just mentioned, with respect to a political agreement? Could these talks be continued? [Castro] No. Mr Skoug made a routine trip. He had no mandate and was not supposed to hold talks with me. What happened was that I had to talk with the chief of our Interest Section, who was in Cuba. I had to travel to the eastern end and asked him to accompany me to talk with him, because he had to return to the United States very soon. When I arrived in Santiago, I learned that Mr Skoug was there. Our comrade visited him and conducted a tour for him, and asked me if I would like to meet him. He asked him and me if there was any reason not to meet. After agreeing, I met him late at night, but for strictly courtesy reasons. He deals with our Interest Section. I have talked with many U.S. citizens, many visitors from all countries. I have no protocol prejudices or need for solemn circumstances. I have no qualms about talking with a senator, legislator journalist, U.S. worker, diplomat, scientist, or physician. I have no problems on that score. I chatted with him; different topics were discussed, topics dealing with the immigration agreement and other matters. He asked me if I had anything to say. What I have to say I have told the legislators, I have said publicly, and I have told newsman. I told him I had nothing to say. So, Mr Skoug's trip is not related to these problems. From what I can see you are no fortune-teller, so someone must have told you I talked with Skoug. It was no secret, but it was not published in the press. [MacNeil] Turning to El Salvador, what specific aid is Cuba giving to the guerrilla groups in El Salvador? [Castro] These are such typical questions. They could be newsworthy and I understand journalists' curiosity. This is a very sensitive area. A journalist asked me about that and I told him I was not going to answer. I asked jokingly if the journalists asked more at the State Department, Pentagon, CIA, and all the intelligence organizations in the United States. I asked if they, were asking from a moral point of view. I do not want to make any statements. I do not want to make commitments on that. I will not say yes or no. What I said to him [Skoug] is that we would support a solution in Central America which would include Nicaragua and El Salvador; that I felt that if solutions were being sought (?without considering) the problems of El Salvador there will be no real solution to Central American problems. I said we support that solution. We support a dialogue, and we understand it is not easy, that it is complex, and that as long as the United States hopes to destroy the Salvadoran revolutionaries, it will not support serious negotiation. I told him that the Salvadoran revolutionaries could resist indefinitely, even though they might not receive military supplies, even though they might not receive a single rifle or shell, because they are prepared to resist indefinitely. They can resupply themselves. They can do as we did in our struggle. They can use the weapons of the Salvadoran Army. I also added that in reality it is almost impossible to supply military equipment to the Salvadoran revolutionaries. That is what I said. It is almost impossible to supply military equipment. I did not want to state our position on this issue, much less at a time when others are being accused and we could appear as adopting a cowardly and opportunistic attitude by saying yes or no. If we say yes, we could be lying. If we say no, we could be adopting an opportunistic and cowardly attitude. So I said that I was not going to affirm or deny anything on this issue. I feel that at the present time the arms and ammunitions supplier of the Salvadoran revolutionaries is the United States, because they give the arms to the Army and part of those weapons and ammunitions are seized by the revolutionaries. We enjoyed that experience. We had no foreign logistics. Batista had a 70,000-man army of soldiers, policemen, and sailors, and in 25 months we fought against that army and defeated it. More than 90 percent of the arms with which we fought were taken from the Batista army. That is a fact, and I am absolutely sure that the Salvadoran revolutionaries can resist indefinitely without receiving arms from abroad. This is not the central issue. [MacNeil] Back to Nicaragua. Many, or some people read into your speech at the Ortega inauguration advice to the Sandinists to be moderate, not to provoke the United States, not to get too close to the Soviet Union. Is that what you intended? [Castro] From where can that be inferred, from my speech? [MacNeil] That is the interpretation. [Castro] I have the fortune of being interpreted in the most varied ways. In that speech, what I said publicly is what I believe and I said the same thing I told the Contadora Group, the same I have said here, old everywhere. It was not an attempt to give advice to the Sandinists because I usually do not give advice to Sandinists, Salvadorans, to any country, or any party. This is a rule I have followed invariably, I give my opinion when I am asked and I express my views when I am asked. You cannot think I am doing to give the Nicaraguans advice publicly, my relations with them are so good and close that I am able to talk and give them my opinion when I am asked privately and not in public. I talked a little about Central American history how interventions in Central America began long before the Soviet Union exited even before the Cuban revolution began. The history of U.S. interventions in Central America and the Caribbean goes back to the early part of the century. The Mexican Revolution was the first great social revolution of Latin America. It took place between 1911 and 1915 before the Soviet Union existed. The struggle of Sandino in Nicaragua against the U.S. troops when I was only 9-months old in 1927. The struggles in El Salvador in the 1930's, with the great peasant riots that claimed the lives of tens of thousands of people, took place when the Cuban revolution was still almost 30 years away. I have explained all this, Latin America's economic problems and our position which does not contradict that of the Sandinists. What I say in private is the same thing I say in public, whether I tell a journalist or a legislator. I go into details. I not only say something but I explain why we do something. I explained our position in my speech in Nicaragua on the inauguration of a sugar mill built with our cooperation. I have had many conversations with the Sandinists. Ours are not paternalistic relations. I give my opinions when I am asked and I do not believe they especially need my advice because they are not against seeking political solutions to the situation. None of the things I have said are in contradiction with what they believe. [MacNeil] Looking back, some people for instance, Wayne Smit the former Interest Section officer here, recently, said that looking back at the Havana Declaration of 1962, when you spoke for revolution for our hemisphere that it seems that you have very moderate in your position about the revolution in the hemisphere. Which countries do you consider suitable for revolution right now? [Castro] Suitable? What do you mean by suitable? [MacNeil] Ripe for... [Castro, interrupting] I would say that from the point of view of social conditions and objective conditions, it is not only Central America but more importantly South America. From an objective point of view, in that area, a prerevolutionary situation has been created. I am absolutely convinced of that. Maybe the subjective conditions are not present. But I see in Latin America, in general, in some more serious than others, such an economic and social crisis that I actually consider it explosive. A situation which can explode any time, I tell you sincerely. [MacNeil] In which countries is it most urgent? [Castro] I believe there are very few exceptions. Venezuela is a country which has a lot of income from oil although it has economic difficulties, high unemployment, different problems; but I do not consider Venezuela's situation as a critical situation. Colombia's situation is not critical either. It is not one of those countries with a great debt, although they do have serious social problems, I do not see it as being so critical. It is very difficult in the other countries. I look at Peru's situation objectively. I see a country which had a military government and later a civilian government with the majority of the votes and a majority of parliament. Only 4 years have elapsed and support for the government has decreased extraordinarily. As a result the government's candidate has only 3.8 percent of the people' s support. This is a result of the economic crisis. There is an unstable situation of social upheaval in the country and one asks, what are the solutions? One does not find the solution. Look at the situation of Bolivia with its constitutional government, supported by the Communist Party. The Communist Party there is not necessarily promoting subversion. It is supporting the government. There is a [words indistinct] strike situation, a terrible social situation, despite the efforts of Siles Zuazo, a man I know to be a man of goodwill. He is decent and is doing everything he can. Look at the problems he has. I look at the problems of Brazil, Uruguay, and Argentina. Political changes have taken place. Civilian governments have been elected. Now they face very serious, terrible problems. Uruguay, for instance has a $5.5-billion foreign debt, exports of around $l billion, the textile markets have been injured by U.S. protectionist measures, the meat market has been hit by meat exports subsidized by the EC, and the cost of living has been reduced by half. [as heard] How can they solve those problems? Argentina has a $45-billion foreign debt, the cost of living has been reduced [as heard] by 35 or 40 percent. How are they going to overcome these problems? They have a constitutional government. President Alfonsin is a man who wants to solve these problems. I also believe Brazil's new government wants to solve its problems. They say they want to pay the foreign debt but do not want to place the burden of the debt on the people, that they are not going to apply recessive measures, that they have to create jobs, have to develop the country. But, how can they do it with the international economic debt, with such an enormous debt, and with the interest on that debt? I do not see a solution to the problem. I am not saying that this hemisphere is inevitably going to explode. But I am absolutely convinced that the problems are very serious. That the social problems have tripled, that population has doubled and the people are facing problems that have no foreseeable solutions. For example I have said, when Kennedy began the Alliance for Progress, he was already concerned with avoiding revolutionary situations. He thought that by investing $20 billion over a certain number of years and with certain social reforms, Latin America's problems could be solved. Twenty-four years have passed since then. The population has doubled, I repeat. The social problems have tripled. The debt is $350 billion and in interest alone, they must pay $40 billion per year. That is twice the amount Kennedy believed was needed to solve the problem over a period of years. To this must be added capital flight, repatriation of earnings, and other problems. Prices are depressed and, in my opinion, the situation is more critical, more serious than anything in the history of this hemisphere. I firmly believe this. And if a solution to the debt problem is not found, I am convinced that if the same IMF measures are applied that are being applied in Santo Domingo and in South America, Latin American societies are going to explode because this is a desperate situation among the workers, the middle levels, even among the oligarchs. The oligarchs, let us say the Uruguayan landowners... [MacNeil, interrupting] Explode in a Marxist-Leninist direction? [Castro] Look, they could explode in any direction. They could explode as did French society in 1789. They could explode like the Mexican Revolution in 1911 or 1912. They could explode as a revolution exploded in Bolivia in 1952. But in this case the problem is general and it could explode in one country or it could explode in many countries. I believe they cannot pay the debt. It is not that they do not want to pay it. They cannot pay it. But I am not just talking about the debt, the interest, the $40 billion in interest that cannot be paid although they might want to. The attempt to force them to pay it could really produce a social upheaval and a revolutionary explosion. I believe it would be necessary to grant at least 10 to 20 years grace, which would include interest so they could have a breathing period. [MacNeil] Let me see if I understand you. You say that to prevent an explosion in Latin America, the international banking community needs to give them 20 years of grace on (?the debt) Is that (?what you are saying)? [Castro] Correct. I am absolutely convinced that under such conditions they are forced to pay not the debt -- the debt can be postponed for 10 years 15 years, it could be staggered over 25 years -- but they cannot pay the interest on the debt. And if the banks demand payment on their interest, an explosion will occur. Any in my opinion, at least 10 to 20 years of grace is required to begin to pay this debt, including interest. That is my opinion. And I believe that will have to happen in the end. And now, on the other hand, I believe there has been some discussion among several countries that there is a certain optimism in the United States, believing that the worst time has passed. The worst has not passed, in my opinion. I dare to assure you categorically that the worst is yet to come. What did I say in Nicaragua? I said what I believe. I believe the only alternative will be for the industrialized nations to assume the Third World's debts. That debt in many cases is private, owed to the banks. I am not saying the banks should forgive the debts but rather that the industrialized countries should assume responsibility for this debt to the banks, not only the debts of Latin America, but also of the Third World. It amounts to about $800 billion, because although the situation is bad in Latin America, it is worse in Africa and other countries. An explosion is not going to take place in Africa because the social forces are absent, the social structure of tens of millions of workers, peasants, intellectuals, intermediate sectors, that exists in Latin America is not there. The problem in Africa is different. Drought, poverty, many people still live in villages as they lived 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago. They are dying, but they do not explode. [MacNeil] Let me turn to Africa and the third obstacle that Washington perceives to the possible improvement of relations with you. You recently spoke of certain circumstances that would cause you to bring troops home. What would have to occur to convince you to bring those troops back to Cuba? [Castro] What is needed? Well, discussions have taken place with the partic pation of the United States and there have been dialogues with the Angolan leadership. We were informed by the Angolans about these negotiations and talks that took place with our support and with our full cooperation. The Angolans have carried out these negotiations while maintaining close contact with Cuba. Therefore, we have a lot of information and the Angolans [words indistinct] a formula. I think they have reached the maximum. That formula consists of the application of Resolution 435, the withdrawal of South African troops from Namibia, the independence of Namibia, the cessation of aid to the counterrevolutionary National Union for the total independence of Angola organization because it is doing the same thing in Angola as the counterrevolutionary bands are in Nicaragua, and finally, an agreement in the UN Security Council signed by Cuba, Angola, and the South-West African People's Organization. These are the points made by Angola. [MacNeil] Could you withdraw any of your troops before? [Castro] The Angolans would not agree to that. From our viewpoint, it would be a mistake. The points I mentioned are included in the Angolan proposal. If they are accepted, Angola commits itself and Cuba, of course, would fully support it by withdrawing over a period of 3 years the contingent consisting of 20,000 men. Even the figure was announced. This is not a whim of the Angolans. They are not assuming an arbitrary position. They maintain, and have reason to believe, that for them to take over the positions being occupied by our troops, they need a period of time to organize units, acquire arms, train those troops and cadres, and then take the positions. One cannot forget that they have been the victim of South Africa's actions and of a civil war imposed on them. They have been struggling for a period of 9 years. They cannot assign their units to those positions and need time. To ask the Angolans to accept the rapid withdrawal, the immediate withdrawal, of those troops is not honest. The Angolans know this very well and would not accept it. That represents a huge concession. With those troops' withdrawal to Cuba, the South Africans would withdraw to their border, and in 24 hours could return to the Angolan border and we would be 10,000 km away from Angola. Who is going to help them? Who could help them? They have the experience of the South African aggression. This is not an arbitrary, capricious position. Angola's position is a real necessity. That is the bulk of our troops. There are still troops in the center and northern part of Angola, including Cabinda. The Angolans have not included those troops in the ongoing negotiations, and their position is that these troops' withdrawal would be a matter to be discussed between Angola and Cuba when it has been determined they are no longer needed. It is the same problem. They have an internal war. If they had no internal war, there would be no problem. The South Africans could withdraw to the south, and we would take a period of time to withdraw. They have an internal war. The Cuban troops are deployed in the center and northern part. They are occupying strategic positions, communications centers, bridges, airports, very important economic objectives. For example, our forces help Angola protect itself in Cabinda. That is the most important resource they have. Indirectly, our interests coincide their with those of the Gulf Oil Corporation. We are defending Angola's interests. [MacNeil] Do you find it ironic that your troops are protecting the Gulf Oil Corporation's installations while the United States rejects the Cuban presence there? [Castro] I believe the paradox is obvious. The United States has a contradiction in its hands, we do not. We are not defending Gulf's interests. We are defending Angola's interests. In this case Angola's and Gulf's interests coincide. I will say something else. I believe Angola's policy is correct with respect to Gulf, because it has the technology and the means to exploit those oil fields and Angola does not have them. We have always believed that policy toward Gulf is correct. Angola has even made concessions to other international firms to explore the seas and the land. So, in our cooperation with Angola, not only does Gulf benefit, but so do firms from France and other countries. Those are Angola's interests, which are the ones we support. [MacNeil] Can I ask, do you think that this projected settlement with respect to the situation in Angola, could erase the Cuban troops in Angola as an issue between the United States and you? [Castro] Before, when there were no troops in Angola, relations with the United States were bad. Whether there are troops in Angola does not make any difference. Are there not [military] advisers in Central America? The United States could invent something else. Besides, they are always talking about our troops and there are U.S. troops on Cuban territory in the Guantanamo base. Nevertheless, we never mention that. We cannot adopt a position such as we withdraw the troops from Angola, if you withdraw your troops from Guantanamo. We cannot make that proposal because it would not be moral. We cannot negotiate Angola's interests with Cuba's interests. That would not by loyal. I cannot understand why the United States talks so much about the Cuban troops in Angola and Ethiopia and never talks about the U.S. troops which, against our will and illegally, are deployed on our territory. That topic is never mentioned. What can be done about this? We would derive the most benefit when those troops return home, when we are able to withdraw our troops from Angola. It is a large number of men. In addition, it is a big human effort. Between the military and civilian cooperation effort, more than 200,000 men have been in Angola during the past 9 years. We do not benefit from this, because we have no economic interests or other type of interests. The cost of our troops, the salaries of our troops' is paid here in Cuba. That includes the salaries of the officers and cadres we have there. The Angolans do not pay one cent for our troops. It has never been the case in Angola or any other country. I say that the life of a Cuban, the blood shed by a Cuban cannot be paid with $100 billion. That is the truth. Among other lies, it is claimed in the United States that the Angolans pay for our troops I want you to know that they have never paid, and even now, when we have thousands of civilians there they do not pay for them. When the economic difficulties began in Angola, we told them we were going to donate our civilian cooperation. The civilian cooperation rendered to Angola is gratis. Angola simply provides housing and food for the personnel there. [MacNeil] How much does it cost Cuba to keep its troops in Angola for a year? [Castro] Well, we would have to... [rephrases] The financial problem is not great. It is a few tens of million pesos for salaries and expenses. For the United States to have a force like ours in Angola would cost it $2 or $3 billion. Our soldier is more frugal in his needs. He does not require cold water to drink, Coca Cola, warm meals, certain shelter; but one would have to figure it out. What it costs us in our national currency could be around 100 million. We would have to do a financial assessment because those people receive salaries. They are not participating in productive activities, but direct cost would not be over 100 million. [MacNeil] I have seen it reported that the presence of Cuban troops in Angola has become increasingly unpopular with the Cuban population. [Castro] I will answer. But to continue estimating our costs in national currency including the total military and civilian staff, I should rectify that the cost could be around 150 million pesos. But it does not cost us foreign currency. In our economic system we have full employment, we enroll, distribute, pay salaries, and have a financial balance. We are not operating with a budget deficit. We are not like the United States in the Vietnam War, financing it with a budget deficit. In our economy we do not have that imbalance. Of course, those soldiers would be here working in industry, agriculture, services and in that sense, we deprive ourselves of those people's services. This is why I am speaking of direct costs. To figure out indirect costs we would have to assess how much these would produce in industry and agriculture. The officers would be in the Armed Forces, but you need to consider how much the rest would produce in services. If there are hundreds of doctors there or 1,500 teachers or professors, how much is their work worth here? Indirect costs could be higher but we call afford it. The United States and other countries do not understand how we can do it. They say: [Cuba] is a Third World country. It is quite simple: We have the men so we are able to do it. The important thing is not to have money, but to be able to have, for instance, teachers in Nicaragua, and doctors in many countries. What is needed is to have people with the awareness, the will, and the ability to do it. That is what we have and it cannot be bought with any kind of money. I believe, another good question that could be asked, if the Latin American countries have that type of men... [MacNeil] Let me ask you this about will. I have seen it reported that increasingly, Cubans troops are refusing to go to service in Angola. Families of troops who are there are being [words indistinct] that you are feeling public pressure to end this. [Castro] I am going to say the following: All of the staff of internationalist missions are doing it on a completely voluntary basis. For example, the teachers that were in Nicaragua, about 2,000 teachers in very remote and difficult places, in the most harsh conditions. At times they lived in very poor peasant homes sharing a single room with other peasant families and animals. The teachers, almost half of whom are women, live in very harsh circumstances. We asked for volunteer teachers to go to Nicaragua and 3,000 volunteered. When the counterrevolutionary bands killed two or three of our teachers, 100,000 volunteered. The question I was going to ask is the following, because this shows the values created by the revolution: If all Latin American governments asked 2,000 teachers to go to work there under the conditions that the Cuban teachers worked, I am sure they would not find them. If they do not have enough teachers to go to their own countryside, I doubt they could find teachers to send to Nicaragua. We have 100,000 willing to go. There are hundreds of thousands willing to go there. For a revolutionary, it is a great honor to fulfilI all internationalist mission. This should not surprise anyone. This happens when people are motivated and have ideals. Of course, it entails sacrifices for the man and his family to be separated during this time. In some cases it means risks, undoubtedly it means sacrifices. But our people can carry out those missions because they are ready to fulfill them because of their political consciousness level, their convictions that they are... [MacNeil, interrupting] Are the soldiers in Angola volunteers too? [Castro] All of them, all of the soldiers are volunteers. [MacNeil] How many have been killed in Angola? [Castro] I was asked this before and said I was not going to answer the question. We have followed the rule of not making public the number. The enemy should not know that information. Someday it will be made public. Each family knows immediately about its loss. As I have told journalists, we know how to properly honor all Cubans who have given their lives in and out of Cuba for a just cause. [MacNeil] Isn't it a matter of public interest and concern to the Cuban people as a whole to know the cost in lives of your Angolan activity? [Castro] No, they understand this is the policy and the right one. Here we are strengthened by the trust and the support the revolutionary policy has from the people. Our people are a militant one. Now, we also receive a benefit, the revolution receives a moral benefit. Because all our people, both military and civilian, have carried out internationalist missions. They return with even greater enthusiasm, greater maturity, increased awareness [words indistinct] idea of the drama and tragedy in these places. They return even more patriotic and revolutionary. There is a moral benefit in all this. Furthermore, our people have become used to danger because we have lived more than 25 years under the threat and hostility of the United States. Our people have become used to this; they have never felt intimidated, and they have always been ready to fight for the revolution and their country. If there is ever an aggression against our country, the sacrifices will be much greater, impossible to calculate, because our people are going to fight. No one should have the slightest doubt that they are not only going to fight...I will not say we are going to destroy the United States in one day, but everybody here including men, women, children, and elderly people, is convinced that this nation is invincible, cannot be occupied, and cannot be conquered. This country is ready for all blockades, bombings, invasions, and occupations. Our country is ready to fight the U.S. forces under the conditions of occupation: in the cities, in the mountains, on the flatlands, everywhere. The country is ready. No one should find this strange. The United States forced us to prepare, (?to give) military training to the entire people, to train hundreds of thousands of military personnel. Our people even understand that our internationalist missions have helped to prepare the people and to train personnel and strengthen them, not only technically but morally. We must begin with the principle that a people capable of fighting for another people is capable of fighting for its own homeland, its own territory. To understand this fact, one must understand that spirit, that conscience. There is no greater honor for the record of a citizen of this country than to have completed an internationalist mission, either civilian or military. Some have completed two and even three. Hundreds of thousands of Cubans have completed internationalist missions under difficult conditions. We have also helped other countries: Mozambique, Ethiopia, and we have been in Southeast Asia. We have physicians in Cambodia, Vietnam, South Yemen, Tanzania, Mozambique, in about 30 nations! We have scholarship students from 84 countries, 24,000 foreign scholarship students. Our country has the greatest number of scholarship students per capita. To understand how we are able to do this, one must understand the revolution, the mystic quality of the revolution, and the motivation of a revolutionary people. Do you think we could have withstood the pressures of the United States for such a long time if we were not a people of iron of steel, as we are? [MacNeil] How do you measure that? As the leader of this country, how do you know for sure when you don't have the vehicles for public expression and open discussion (?that a democracy has)? How do you know that the people feel that way? [Castro] We have a party with almost half a million members. They are everywhere, in every factory. We know more than the United States knows about what happens there. The U.S. Government may know what is going on in Harlem, or what is happening in parts of the United States where Mexicans live. The United States has millions of immigrants, some of whom are not even registered. We know [words indistinct] members of youth organizations, almost a million between the two. The Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, to which all the citizens of the country are organized, have 3 million members. In addition, the women of the country are organized, and there are 2,800,000. The workers of the country, organized by unions, amount to about 3 million. More than 1 million intermediate-level students are organized. Even the [words indistinct] are organized. All the farmers are organized. There are persons who belong to several organizations. A woman [words indistinct] who works belongs to a union, and as an inhabitant of a neighborhood she belongs to a Committee for the Defense of the Revolution. These organizations... [MacNeil, interrupting] I understand that structure. But suppose at one lower level in a Committee for the Defense of the Revolution there are groups of people who don't agree with you, who say: I don't think Cuba should be sending troops. What mechanism exists for them to express that dissent? [Castro] We have mechanisms to explain policy, obviously: study circles...[interrupted due to an apparent mistranslation] [MacNeil] Apply your policy? [Castro] Yes, and to explain it. We not only have a public explanation of policy, but the entire party, youth, and mass organizations discuss and study all these problems. They have study circles; they express their doubts. When we know there is a problem that is not well understood, we make a study (?that we make) public. We do it through the party, youth, and mass organizations; so we have reached a level of unity that the United States does not have. We are much more united than the people of the United States, without a doubt. I believe we have a people with a level of political culture very superior to that of the people of the United States. Don't take this as an offense. I don't want to hurt your feelings But sometimes some people [words indistinct]. [MacNeil] Then don't take as an offense the question I am going to ask you. The United States has protested, the White House did so just this week, through its spokesmen, that one of the obstacles to improving relations is what they call violations of human rights in Cuba. [Castro] What are the violations of human rights in Cuba? Tell me what they are. Invent one for me. They have disappeared here. Tell me one of those that have disappeared. If the United States really had scruples... [MacNeil, interrupting] I am going to give you an example. Human rights organizations such as Amnesty International estimate that you have up to 1,000 political prisoners in your jails. Do you still have political prisoners in the jails? [Castro] Yes, we have them. We have a few hundred. Is that a fault, is it a violation of human rights? You have done worse. For example, we have a few prisoners. [MacNeil] In democracies it is a violation of human rights to imprison someone for his political beliefs. [Castro] I can give you an example. In Spain there are many Basque nationalists in prison. If they are not political prisoners, what are they? We have to determine who is a political prisoner and who is not. In Nuremberg you tried as war criminals many Germans; what were they? Were they political prisoners, or what? You are still trying them now. The French have a German on trial in France. Those who perpetrated crimes here during the Batista dictatorship, do we have the right to try them? Those who invaded Cuba at Giron beach, do we have the right to try them? Those who became agents of the CIA, those who set off bombs, those who killed peasants, workers, and teachers, do we have the right to try them? What are those people who in complicity with a foreign power such as the United States, and supported and encouraged by the United States, conspire against our country and struggle against our people and their revolution because this revolution does not belong to a minority, but is one of an immense majority of our people? Are they political prisoners? Those who have infiltrated through our coastline, who have been trained by the CIA to kill, to set off explosive devices, are criminals. We have the right to try them. Are they political prisoners? They are more than political prisoners; they are traitors to the fatherland. I would like to see what the United States would do if a group of U.S. citizens came to Cuba and we trained them to set off explosive devices in the United States, to perpetrate sabotage in the United States, to land on the beaches of the United States, I ask: What would you do with them? Would you have the right to try them? Why is Cuba's right to try and sanction those people who are worse than political prisoners being questioned? They are traitors to the country. What can you say about that? [MacNeil] Is there anybody in jail simply because his political beliefs are different from yours? [Castro] There is no one in jail for political or religious beliefs. All that is a legend. It reminds me of the famous case of Valladares, the poet. He says he is a poet. He is not a poet and he was not paralyzed. When we demonstrated to him that he was not paralyzed, he stood up. He was simply an individual sanctioned for terrorist plans and a former member of Batista's police force. All that you are saying is a legend. Many people in the United States believe in something because they were told to believe. They cannot sustain their belief. They have beliefs but no ideas. That is the way many things are analyzed in the world. That is the way Cuba and Latin America are analyzed. [MacNeil] When Jesse Jackson came here last summer, you set free political prisoners. Are you planning to set free more political prisoners of the type you have described? [Castro] Jesse Jackson spoke about this. The bishops spoke about this. [MacNeil] Are you talking about the American bishops who were here? [Castro] Yes. Everybody that comes here. The State Department supplied a list of counterrevolutionary prisoners who were very well liked by the U.S. Government. These are the one who have a hostile attitude, a recalcitrant position. Definitely, I can say that at the beginning of the revolution there were many counterrevolutionary prisoners, many of them. Well, we had some 300 organizations during the period of time when the CIA and the United States were most active. They used to get six individuals together and formed an organization. Then we had many prisoners more than 100,000 counterrevolutionary prisoners. We were the ones who little by little set them free. Cases similar to that of the mercenaries who landed at Giron Beach, traitors to the country who under the orders of the United States, invaded their homeland. We were the ones [who set them free] We made one demand. We had to be paid an indemnification in medicines and foodstuffs for children. But that was not essential. Actually it was an excuse. Their army of heroes was shipped back to Miami. We had attained victory and their imprisonment of from 15-20 years was not important. We have released many of them. Very few remain in prison and the United States knows who its most appreciated prisoners are. They have an attitude of hatred toward the revolution. Those lists are handed to everyone coming here, to the bishops to everyone directly or indirectly. Willy Brandt who was here, was given the list in Venezuela. It is strange that you have not been handed a list. We are not willing to release those people. They are fewer than 200. They are potentially dangerous. We cannot release them to organize attacks against Cuba or go to Nicaragua, or Honduras, or Central America as mercenaries, or Europe, or any country to plot attacks against me in case I visit those countries as they have done before. They would organize a real human hunt. That is the training given to them by the CIA and other U.S. authorities. The bishops showed interest in certain health cases. I promised to review them. If there are real cases of health problems, we would have no objective to releasing these individuals and sending them to the United States because we are not motivated by hatred, or vengeance. Really, if that possibility would not exist, if we did not have a United States which hates us, that helps those people, we could release them. However, in the present situation we cannot do that. We made that promise to the bishops. I talked to them about more than 150 military prisoners of the Batista era who did not perpetrate crimes as despicable as invading the homeland and who have been in jail for more than 25 years I said: No one worries about them. We ourselves have been releasing them but we have difficulties, because they return to live in the same towns where they killed and where the children or brothers or parents or their victims live. I told the bishops: No one worries about them. [Castro] We ourselves [words indistinct] but we had difficulties because they are going to live in the same town where they killed or where the children live or the brothers or parents of those who were victims [words indistinct]. I told the bishops not to worry because actually there [words indistinct] charity and human concern [words indistinct] We freed a third of them before they finished their sentences. Because some of them were sentenced to 40 or 50 years, like you in the United States, where you have people sentenced to 80, 90, or 100 years. Here the sentences are not for so long. Here we would not sentence anyone to 90 years or to the electric chair, be that humane or not, all that could be discussed. Finally, what I mean to say is that as I told the bishops we are going to review the list looking also at the Batista partisans and if we can get visas from the United States, we will free half of them. I believe they have served enough time, if they are accepted in the United States. We are not going to force them to go to the United States. However, we would let them go. This is what I was discussing with the bishops and what I promised the U.S. bishops. [MacNeil] The other human rights question brought up by the United States is that you don't have a free press. Your revolution is now 26 years old. It is very stable. In your recent speeches you spoke about how successful it is. Why wouldn't you feel comfortable about allowing a press to have full expression of ideas [words indistinct]? [Castro] Well you are right. We do not have a press system like that of the United States. In the United States there is private ownership of the means of communication and of the mass media. It belongs to private enterprises. It is they who have the last word. You have the constitutional right of course but if the newspaper so desires it will not publish you. And we know of right-wing newspapers that always publish barbarous statements and of some that are more leftist and have other criteria. In the editorials, they write what they want even when what they write are lies. Recently, I protested about a WASHINGTON POST article, an editorial based on a falsehood. It was after an interview I gave, they repeated the same lie and wrote in an insulting way, despite the fact that THE WASHINGTON POST and THE NEW YORK TIMES are part of a serious group, they are the most serious newspapers in the United States. To me there are two groups who work for THE WASHINGTON POST: Those led by Bradley, people who are serious and try to be objective; and those who prepare the editorials. The latter do not have the same quality as the former. They are two distinct groups. It is the owners of the newspaper who decide who works and who writes. Brilliant U.S. journalists [passage indistinct] some for television others through radio. They make public opinion. They discussed, they debate. There is all of that. Here that does not exist. There is no private ownership of the news media. It is social property. It has been, is, and will be at the service of the revolution. We do not have a multiparty system, either, and we do not need one. Actually, we have united all the people, with political, cultural, social, and economic objectives, and it is lucky we have a united people. If we were not a united people, if we had a conservative party here, directed by the international conservative organization; a Christian democratic party, directed by the international Christian democratic organization; or other parties of that type, they would be used by the United States against us. We do not have them and we do not need them. But it would be a good idea for you to go into the factories, the streets, and ask if they think there is a need for a party. How many negative answers would you receive from the citizens? You would receive this answer: We do not have a multiparty system. We do not have private ownership of the news media. It is a social property. We do not have any commercial advertising, not in the press, television, or radio. All space is devoted to national and international information, domestic issues, problems of our economy, education, public health, culture, sports, historical, and scientific activities. This is what television and radio time are devoted to, with no type of commercial advertising. We do not tell the people what soft drink to buy or what cigarettes to smoke, in what bed they should sleep, or what shoes they should wear. Such things are told people in countries with a different system. Well, for that reason also, if you will allow me, the political level of our people and the degree to which they are informed is much better. In a study that was done in the United States an astonishing number of people did not know the location of Nicaragua or other Latin American countries. They did not even know what countries are in Africa, or Asia. This is an incredible degree of ignorance. This does not happen here. You could go to any corner of the country and ask where is the United States, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, and Bolivia and who is the president of Bolivia, what system of government does Bolivia have and where is Ethiopia, Angola, Guinea-Bissau, Algeria, India. I can tell you, if you took 100 average citizens from the United States and compared them with 100 average [Cuban] citizens and gave them a test, our people, despite this much-criticized system, know more about politics, social problems, historical problems, geographic problems, than the average citizen of the United States. Your system might be wonderful. But we at least have our results, which are better. And when you want, we can prove it. Then, what are we missing? The lack of education than the system of private ownership of the mass media has brought to the United States. [MacNeil] May I raise a point? In your system, which you say works very well, it does presuppose that you, the leadership of the country, are always right, that you are infallible. [Castro] It does not presuppose that because we are not as dogmatic as a church, although we have been dogmatic. We have never preached the personality cult here. You will not see my statue anywhere, nor my name on a school, a street, or a little town. Nor will you see any kind of idolization of the individual because we have not taught our people to believe but to think, to reason. We have a country that thinks. It is not a country that believes but reasons, thinks and that may agree or disagree with me. In general, the large majority has agreed with me because we have always talked to them sincerely. They have always been told the truth. The people know that the government has never lied to them. I ask you to go around the world and to go to the United States and see if they can say what I am able to say. I have never lied to the people. This is why there is confidence, not because they have built statues or made an idol of me, but simply because they trust me. In this country I have very few prerogatives. I do not appoint ministers, vice ministers, directors of ministries, or ambassadors. I do not appoint anyone like that. We have a system for selecting cadres according to their abilities. I have a hundred times less power than the President of the United States who can even declare nuclear war. Are they going to ask the U.S. people the day they start a nuclear war? I do not have the power to decide any of those matters. I have the right to speak to the people, to cadres, to the party's committees, and to the Politburo. I want you to know that my powers are very limited in this country. I have the power to support positions and ideas, but I do not need or want more power. So it is impossible for me to be infallible since the only thing I have the power to do is to speak. [MacNeil] Perhaps I was wrong in saying that you [words indistinct] but does it mean that the system, that the revolution is always right? [Castro] We work within the premise that the revolution is fair, that it is a fair and honorable cause. It is based on deep-seated principles. If we believed fascism or colonialism or capitalism would be better, then we would be fascists, or colonists, or capitalists. We would defend it in the same way you do, because U.S. leaders believe capitalism is unimprovable, that it is the perfect system, and the best thing in the world. In the Middle Ages the monarch's court believed that absolute monarchy and feudalism were the best system. In ancient Athens, they talked about a democracy, but it was a democracy of a few in a society where there were many slaves without rights. Slavery lasted a long time; it lasted until Lincoln's time. That time was also called a democracy. When you waged the war of independence you did not give freedom to the slaves, yet you said you were a democratic country. In 150 years your country did not allow a black man to be a member of a baseball team or a basketball team, to enter a club or to go to a white school, yet you called it a democracy. None of those things exist here. There is no racial or sex discrimination. It is the most fair and egalitarian society that ever existed in this hemisphere. We consider it to be superior to yours. But you think that yours is superior without question. You have both multimillionaires and barefoot homeless beggars [words indistinct] people. You think your society is perfect because you have that conviction. I do not think that type of society is perfect. I think that ours is better. We have supported a better, more fair society, which we believe in. Now, we do make mistakes. But when we make mistakes we have the courage to explain, admit, acknowledge, and criticize them. I believe there are very few people in the world who, like the leaders of our revolution, have the courage to admit their mistakes. I first admit them to myself because I criticize myself more than I do others. I am criticized by my people, the world, and the United States. I am not mistaken in acknowledging my critics. If this reasoning was faulty, the revolution would not be in power. [MacNeil] Give me an example of a mistake you feel you have made and then admitted. [Castro] In politics we have made few mistakes, fortunately. We have been fairly wise in our decisionmaking. In the economic area, we have made mistakes. They have been a result of our ignorance because revolutionaries tend to be moved by very noble ideas: that there be education, health services, work, and development for everyone. When you undertake the actual work of building an economy, when most of the intellectuals have been removed, a large number of intellectuals, engineers, economists, managers, professors, teachers...[sentence incomplete] That's what the United States did, it left us without them. We accepted the challenge. We let them take all they could. Now we have new intellectuals, many more than before. We have graduated almost 200,000 university professionals, almost 300,000 teachers. We have 20,500 doctors, and they had left us 3,000. In the next 15 years we will be graduating 50,000. We have 600,000 workers in education and health. But we know something. I think the people do the right thing in keeping us in power. You can be assured that we would not need to be removed. It would be enough for us to know that we do not have the people's confidence, and the support of the vast majority, not just of a majority, but of the vast majority of the people. [MacNeil, interrupting] How would you know if you didn't? [Castro] How would I know what? [MacNeil] That you did not have the confidence of the majority of the people. [Castro] I am telling you that we know more than the President of tie United States. We know how the people think. We also conduct surveys to discover views. We also meet with people of the grass roots. We have information about the country's views and problems. [MacNeil] [Words indistinct] Isn't it part of the dynamics of a one-party state that the instructions and information go downward and the people who disagree with it do not dare say so? So dissent which may exist does not (?move upwards)? [Castro] Do you think we have missing persons here? Do we torture people? [Words indistinct] By the way, you told me the United States is concerned over human rights in Cuba; this is amazing. When we see the excellent relations they had with the military government of Argentina, where (?thousands) of people disappeared; the excellent relations with Pinochet who murdered and caused so many people to disappear; the excellent relations with South Africa, which oppresses 20 million blacks, I am really amazed. Their qualms of conscience at maintaining relations with [words indistinct] because of human rights. Here no one is discriminated against, there is no apartheid, no fascism, no torture, no people disappear. That is, we know the situation, and we know how our people think much better than the U. S President knows what the American people think. Do not doubt that. We have many means of knowing this. The facts prove it! Let us suppose that the people might not agree with the revolution. Would there be hundreds of thousands, millions of persons ready to carry out whatever internationalist mission [words indistinct] however difficult it might be, to go anywhere in the world? Would there be 100,000 teachers willing to go to Nicaragua? No, no. Facts (?are important), not words. How could we have resisted, how could we have millions of persons organized to defend our country, how could we have an armed people? Tell the South Africans, your South African friends, to give arms to the blacks in South Africa. Tell your friend Pinochet to give weapons to the people of Chile. Tell your friends in Paraguay or in Haiti to give weapons to the masses, to the people. Tell many of your friends to do this, you who speak of democracy. The first and most important form of democracy is for the citizen to feel he is part of the power and part of the state. How can we show this? We have an armed people, men and women, millions of persons. If they were not in agreement with the government, they could settle matters quickly. We would not last 24 minutes here in power. Do you want any more proof? [MacNeil] You wanted to say something? [Castro] I wanted to state a fact. I want you to know that we have our socialist Constitution. When the socialist Constitution was submitted to a plebiscite, 97 percent, if I am not mistaken, voted to approve the socialist Constitution, 97 percent! In our elections for delegates and the National Assembly of the People's Government, more than 90 percent of the population participates. We have a much higher participation in elections than the United States does. Candidates are nominated at the grass-roots level by the neighbors. The party does not elect the candidates. Each district can elect as many as eight. If no one receives more than 50 percent of the first vote, the vote is repeated. If we did not have the support of the overwhelming majority of the people, they would present certain candidates and they would elect them. If the revolution did not have the majority of the population behind it, it would lose power. Besides, a revolution cannot be defended with Pinochet's methods. With Pinochet's method, the oligarchy and capitalism can be defended, but not a revolution. To defend a revolution by force, you need soldiers and police who are repressive, capable of killing, of shooting the people, capable of torture. In 26 years we have never used one soldier, one policeman against the people. In 26 years we have not had even a demonstration in opposition to the revolutionary government. If we had to defend ourselves with force, we do not have a single soldier or policeman in this country capable of shooting at the people. You have to have an army specialized in repression like the armies of the governments that are your friends in South America, that have been trained by the United States. You have a lot of experience in that, in training Central American, South American armies [Castro laughs]; you train them, arm them, give them security advisers. You have a lot of experience [words indistinct] the army first at [words indistinct]. But our Army has never fired a single bullet at our people, not even into the air! [MacNeil] Would you say your system is more participatory than the Soviet system? [Castro] Well, one always thinks that one's own is the best. But I think the socialist systems are very participatory. They have certain things similar to ours. They have great unity, at least the Soviets do. I know the Soviets well, the Soviet people. It is a very united, very patriotic people, with a great political culture. Their system is not identical to ours. But I can state that the Soviet system has the support of the overwhelming majority of the people. They proved it in World War II. Hitler believed the Soviet regime was toppling, that it was built on sand, that his armored divisions could sweep through Moscow as they had swept through all the European capitals, and that enslaved people would revolt against the socialist system. Nevertheless, in no other country did they meet the resistance they met in the USSR. Really, it was the only country where they met such resistance. I believe the British are a brave people. I believe that if the Nazis had Great Britain, the British would undoubtedly have fought with great bravery, but I believe that despite their system which is so highly praised, so democratic, so parliamentary, they would not have fought as the Soviets did. If we go to Vietnam, I believe we will also find a revolutionary party, a socialist regime, a very socialist regime, that may have all the defects that the Cuban and Soviet regimes have. They fought against elite U.S. troops and U.S. military technology and they defeated them. What systems are these, in which the people are so discontent and have so little participation and nevertheless fight for the system, defending it to the last drop of blood. Is this not sufficient proof to (?show) that the systems exist with the support of the people? We hope we never have to prove to what degree our people are capable of defending a socialist system, so poorly understood, really, by Western mentality. [MacNeil] I'd like to ask you about the people who are going to be returned to Cuba as a result of the immigration agreement you made with the United States. Some of the lawyers who have been taking their cases want them to stay in the United States because they say they will be persecuted if they return here. These are the former criminals, prisoners, and mental patients who went with the Mariel boatlift. What is going to happen to them when they return? [Castro] I will tell you. The story that mentally ill people were taken from hospitals is an absurd and ridiculous legend. But if they believe it in the United States, okay. The idea that we took murderers, freed them, and sent them to the United States is also absurd and ridiculous. No one in this country would have dared do that because a mentally ill person is someone who is too sacred in this country to be sent to the United States. A person responsible for a violent crime, someone who had raped a woman or girl or committed a murder, no one would have dared to have sent people like that and no one would accept that. But still that legend exists. [MacNeil] How did they get there? [Castro] How did they get there? That type of people did not arrive there. That type of people never got there. Some family members complained to someone that they had some mental problem. That is possible. But he was not taken out of hospital and he was not a criminal. I do not deny that other types of people went there, antisocial people as we call them here, people responsible for other things, but not sick people or those responsible for violent crimes. If we had been so incredible as to take a patent from a hospital and sent him to the United States, you would still not have the moral justification to send him back here, if we had been capable of doing that. There are so many resources for human rights in the United States that for you to receive a mental patient like a ball and send him right back, no, that is not the agreement we have made, because that type of people did not leave here. We told them to send those they considered excludable for whatever reasons, all we need to know is that they are Cuban citizens. We ask: How many mental patients are there who were taken from hospitals? No one could answer that. How many murderers were sent from the jails? Now, there are people who did commit crimes there. There are many people who never before committed a crime and then committed one. There are people who are ill there, there may have been complaints from family members about someone who might have had problems. But we did not deliberately take individuals who were mentally ill. That is absolutely false. And that is my argument with THE WASHINGTON POST -- not with THE WASHINGTON POST, with the group of editorialists at THE WASHINGTON POST because they have insisted on this. Now then, what will we do about this? If an individual is ill or he became ill while there, or was among those who had some mental problem, we will simply send them to the hospitals, certain that they will be better cared for here than in the United States because our psychiatric hospitals are better than the hospitals in the United States and they have better medical results than the hospitals in the United States. If the individual has not committed crimes in the United States, he will come, he will go through a medical quarantine to find out if he has any symptoms of AIDS, which you have there and we do not have here. When he completes the quarantine period, we will find him a place to live, if he has no family. If he has family, he can live with them, and we will find a job for him. If he has committed a crime in the United States, some serious crime against a family, against a person, a crime of that sort, although it is not specified under our agreement, our intention is that he finish the sentence that is set for these crimes. If he has stood trial, he will serve the sentence he has been given. If he has not been tried, we will request that all the information be sent to us so we can take legal measures. If someone has committed serious crimes in the United States, he will have to serve his sentence here for two reasons, for our own security and in consideration of the U.S. family that has been victimized by these types of crimes. These are our proposals. [MacNeil] Turning to the economy, you said in your speech to the National Assembly: We are not becoming capitalists. Are you beginning to lean toward a little capitalism? [Castro] On the contrary, I am becoming more and more distant from capitalism, mentally, spiritually, philosophically. Each day I am more convinced about the advantages of the socialist system over the capitalist system, more convinced that capitalism has no future, no long-term future. I am not saying that capitalism is going to disappear in 10 years. But will the current system of capitalism last? It is already different from the capitalist system of the last century. [MacNeil] Aren't you allowing creeping private enterprise? [Castro] Absolutely not. [MacNeil] For example, permitting the Cuban people to buy their own houses. [Castro] But a house is not an enterprise, it is not a means of production, it is for the use of families. [MacNeil] By permitting free markets where vegetables and food can be sold by people who produce it, by opening up supermarkets where goods, consumer goods have price scales higher than subsidized prices, are these not examples of creeping private enterprise? [Castro] When you asked me about [words indistinct] I said policy but you did not allow me to continue and asked me other things and that question remained unanswered. At first we did not have experience in economic development, we had an attitude of a certain disregard for the experience of other socialist countries. Actually we were somewhat self-sufficient. I believe this has happened to many revolutionaries. That is, they believe they know more than the others. Moreover in the field of economics, we made mistakes, which we call errors of idealism. In essence, it consisted of trying to leap over historical stages to try to get to a more egalitarian society with a communist type of distribution, almost skipping over the socialist stage in which there is no communist distribution. We had almost arrived to the point of being able to distribute according to the people's need and not according to work, the quantity and quality of work, when we reached the point of understanding that that practice had negative effects. Our society had not yet attained the necessary communist culture and consciousness. We corrected that type of mistake and we started applying socialist principles, which were established by Marx, Engels, and Lenin. And we started socialist distribution despite the fact that many things were being distributed in a communist way, such as education at all levels up to university, medical services, many recreational activities, sports, and stadiums, which are free because professional sports do not exist here. But in the field of economy and service, we pay currently in accordance with quality and quantity [words indistinct]. During this period we committed other mistakes, I would say it was nothing more than suppressing money. Then we corrected it. We took a series of measures and adopted a system to better utilize the experiences of the socialist countries, we added some of our ideas to them and we began to achieve much better efficiency in the economy. But we have not taken a single step back and we are not going to do so. You have referred some things. We had about 150,000 peasants, we still have them, individual peasants. We never have exerted pressure on them; in recent years the cooperative movement developed and is progressing. It is totally voluntary. About 50 percent of the individual farmers are in cooperatives but we still have individual peasants, who own trucks, some 14,000 of them. Well then, at a certain time we tested the free peasant market. It was discussed at great length. I will tell you the truth, I was not very much in favor of it but I agreed to try the experiment and they developed the free peasant market to sell what the individual peasants had produced. They sold things at very high prices. Some middlemen went into operation. And the people were not happy with that. They protested a lot because they thought they were being robbed. The people pay a very high price at a state store for products and they know that money is reinvested in education, health, investment in the country's development. But when someone charges a very high price they do not accept that. So what did we do? We set up a chain of state shops with free market prices. That is we sell the products that are controlled at a subsidized price, the essential products. These prices are much higher. We created an enterprise that bought the goods from the peasants at higher prices, at preferential prices to gather these products. We discussed this with the peasants, with the peasant association. We did not prohibit the free market. We left it. But the amount it sells is insignificant. To finish on this point, I wanted to say something else. There are many people with capitalist experience in the field of management, organization, they have companies with 500 restaurants, they have dozens of factories. They have the same problems we have. We have dozens of sugar factories, dozens of restaurants, and in structure there is no difference. Your enterprises are the same as ours only in your case, it belongs to transnational corporations and in ours it belongs to the state. But we have to learn to administer it well and that requires capitalistic experience, which is useful. And this is what we are saying. We could also accept private enterprise in association with Cuba, and even, although it is further in the future and it has not been legislated yet, we could do it. Because if we had a resource that we cannot exploit because of lack of technology or capital, we could also accept that this is not in contradiction with our system. It is not that we are leaning toward capitalism. The more I analyze today's world, the Third World, the problems of the industrialized world, unemployment has not been solved, unemployment is growing in Europe yearly, and they can plan how many unemployed there will be in the year 1990, 1995, or 2000. The deeper I think and meditate, the less capitalistic I feel. [MacNeil] What do you say to this statement by the Communist Party of China: Only when some individuals are allowed and encouraged to become better off first through diligent work will more and more people be promoted to take the road to prosperity? [Castro] That is a very vague statement. [MacNeil] Doesn't it sound like an elementary definition of capitalism to you? [Castro] Within socialism we have incentives. And actually our mistake earlier was to ignore that and to want to use only moral incentives or consciousness. In this sense we were mistaken. We have been putting a lot of emphasis on moral factors because that teacher who goes to Nicaragua, or the one who goes to Africa, any place in Africa, he does not do it for money and they would not do it for any amount of money. We have many more people in this country who do difficult things for reasons of consciousness than any capitalist country has. There are many things that the masses of our people will do that cannot be done for money. But we do take monetary incentives into consideration. He who works more gets paid more. He who gets the best results, who makes a higher quality product will get more, we call them prizes, we call them material incentives. But that is a very vague statement. I do not know when that statement was made. Is it recent or is it from the time of Mao? Is it a statement by Deng Xiaoping or by Mao? [MacNeil] Last October. [Castro] It is a way of putting things that is so generic that I cannot say what it resembles. Capitalism could also make a similar statement. But I may refer to moral incentives and if so it fits within socialism. Anyway, I would not subscribe to it to the letter I would be more careful. [MacNeil] It has been frequently remarked that socialist countries like Hungary provide more and more material incentives, called goulash communism, pardon the expression, that increasingly the socialist world will have to give more and more material incentives to overcome the contradictions and the problems of central planning. [Castro] As a rule, I respect what each country does. If it is China, let the Chinese do as they please, if it is Hungary, or the GDR, or Poland. I like to respect what others do, as a rule. I understand that it is necessary to improve the socialist distribution method and that it is necessary to seek more efficiency, perhaps by using increasingly more certain material incentives, establishing greater relation between the worker's income and the results of his work. I believe it is correct within the socialist concept. Each country has its own style, its authorities. We are satisfied with what we have done. We are satisfied with the way our teachers work, our workers, our technicians, intellectual workers, manual workers. I will tell you the truth, I have great confidence in education, in moral factors, and I think that will be the essential thing. It is not necessary to move toward capitalism to overcome problems or to learn from capitalism. It is not necessary to develop selfishness and people's individualism. I believe we have to develop solidarity and the people's awareness in a realistic way without ignoring individual factors. But this in my opinion, is not the future. We are not going to move toward capitalism. I believe that what we have achieved with the socialist system will never be achieved in the capitalist system. If you believe in mankind and mankind's solidarity, then you can be socialist. If you believe mankind is selfish, if you stress mankind's selfishness and ambition, which is what capitalism does, then you do not achieve a better man but a selfish man, excessively individualistic. [MacNeil] Isn't it in human nature to be acquisitive? [Castro] Well, society has always struggled against instincts. For example, when it is said "do not steal," I imagine the primitive man oppressed the weaker one. In nature, the stronger one even tries to deprive the female. I imagine man has done this at one time or another. I believe that every civilization has had a constant struggle against nature, against instincts many times. We have become more civilized, we have made great conquests precisely because of man's consciousness, man's spirit. He who sacrifices for an idea becomes a saint, a hero. Historically, we are not the only ones. We have struggled to achieve a better man. Christianity struggled for a better man. They had men who went to the Roman lion circuses. They were devoured by the lions because they refused to renounce their faith. They instilled moral principles. What do the Catholic, Protestant, and the Muslim churches do? They say do not drink, man wants to drink; do not eat this thing, do this, do that. We are not the first ones to invest a set of moral values, or who have placed faith in mankind. Now, we have done so to a greater degree than any church has. We have considered as a real possibility combining the development of material things and man's morality. I believe socialism could not have been conceived in the times of ancient Rome nor in the Middle Ages. It is well known that socialist scientists worked under the premise that this system was possible because of the great development that the productive forces in fact reached under capitalism. So we place our faith in that and keep placing faith in it. When things do not turn out right, we should not blame the system. We have to blame ourselves. Experience has taught us we cannot achieve what we are not able to organize properly, or to conceptualize well. We do not obtain from the people what we are not able to ask for. [MacNeil] Let me turn to your present economic situation. You have seen...you have just made some adjustments in your plans for 1985. Part of it puts emphasis on expanding exports to Western countries. You want to build your exports to the West up from 13 percent [words indistinct] to 20 percent. If you were in trouble fulfilling your quotas in things like sugar, nickel, and citrus to the Soviet Union, how are you going to find products with which to increase your exports? Where are the products coming from? [Castro] Yes, I believe we can. What we have suggested is not all-out exports to the western market. We have indicated the need to guarantee exports to that area, first because of the growing needs of a developing economy which needs over 13, 15 maybe between 15 to 20. [no further explanation of figures] This is our estimate for a growing economy. It needs more socialist imports and also more imports from western areas. So, we must develop production to guarantee both, the increase of exports to the West and exports to the socialist countries. This includes honoring our obligations. That is the correct thing to do. Because at times we have not fulfilled our sugar commitment to the USSR, we have diverted products to the capitalist world. This is not a good practice. We have to eradicate this type of practice. That is not the way of obtaining foreign currency. We have chosen to honor our obligations as a fundamental principle especially, with countries with which we have better trade advantages. It is a fundamental duty to honor our obligations by increasing our production. You were speaking of nickel... [MacNeil, interrupting] Excuse me for interrupting you. You spoke in your speech to the National Assembly of a worker in Siberia working in weather 20 degrees below zero to provide oil or something of benefit to you and you felt a great moral duty in providing oranges to him. [Castro] That is basic. I have put forward different problems. There is a mentality which has to be overcome. We must look at exports to see if they have increased before looking at more expenses for the development of different things. Sometimes, they ask for greater expenditures than the economy's growth. Secondly, we have had a satisfactory social development in different areas, social, education, health, sports, culture, well above any Third World country and even several developed or industrialized countries. Now we are going to stress economic development. We must have priority over social development with a long-range plan of 15 or 20 years. We have now said that an investment which generates exports should have priority over a recreational center, over an investment of a social type. That would also be proposed by the IMF, it is not only us. The United States has asked this from Latin American countries. But those countries have very little social development. It is disastrous. [MacNeil] This means the Cuban people will have to wait a little longer for consumer goods or perhaps more sports centers? [Castro] Well, in the area of food consumption our country has an average of 3,000 calories and 80 grains of proteins. They are very well distributed. On the rest, education, health, clothing, shoes, their level is satisfactory. It does not mean it will not continue to grow. We have said we can do two things with new textile factories, we use all that material or we export it. If we have more steel for construction, we build more or we export it. We have said we have to mainly think of development and not great increases of personal consumption. In Haiti, this cannot be mentioned, it cannot be mentioned in Latin America. Here, fortunately, we can say it, we ask our youth, in what kind of world are you going to live, what kind of economy are you going to have? We present this to the masses. We say it is your flag you have to struggle for. There will be increases, maybe the black and white television sets will be traded for color television sets, more refrigerators, more articles, there will be increases. Health will continue to improve. I told you we will have 50,000 more doctors in the next 15 years. In health, we do not compare ourselves with Jamaica or Haiti, we compare ourselves with the United States. In 10 or 15 more years, we will be ahead of the United States in the field of health, in infant mortality, in life expectancy, health indexes, far ahead, despite U.S. wealth. Education will improve. It is already improving, but we will not place the main emphasis there, we will not emphasize social development, the emphasis will be on economic development on a long-term basis. [MacNeil] So you didn't tell what product you are going to find to export [words indistinct] to build up your (?economy). [Castro] I will give you a simple example: books. We have printing capabilities, increased production of paper, bagasse board. There is a demand for books, what do you think about that? There is a demand for books, for pulp, paper. Marine products, the development and production of, for example, seafood, shrimp. We have great possibilities, it depends on demand. Tobacco has great demand. Tourism has a growing demand in our country, bigger than our lodging capabilities. We have over 100 new export areas; in sugar industry machinery, we have already manufactured over 60 percent of the equipment of a new sugar mill. This was proven in Nicaragua. Their new sugar mill is the best one in Central America. We built that project and over 60 percent of that sugar mill's equipment. We also manufacture machinery for the mechanical industry, and agricultural machinery. Construction materials, there are great possibilities there. We even have a construction enterprise with demand abroad from different countries abroad. Also the export of technical services, export of projects. I mentioned construction material industry, say, cement, bathroom fixtures, they are in demand. The textile industry, we just finished a 80-million square meter factory, we finished one of 60-million square meters. We are expanding other textile factories. The pharmaceutical industry and biomedical products industry have great possibilities and perspectives. We have markets, there is demand. There are certain products with more difficulties, such as nickel. We have had difficulties with nickel because of an old plant with some problems but it is being repaired. Maintenance work is being done. But at the same time, we are finishing a new plant of [figure indistinct] tons for nickel and cobalt. We are also going to extract cobalt, so we will be producing nickel and cobalt. We are building a new 30,000-ton plant. We are increasing oil production and we plan to triple production in the next 5 years. We are considering the production of gas. There are interesting possibilities, although we are not counting on that. But we must mention savings. We are building a nuclear power plant with four generating units. It saves $500 million worth of oil. It is not only to export but to substitute for imports. We are not going to have problems in finding a market because the market is already there. According to our plans, we are not only developing production for the Western market but also for the socialist market, which is undoubtedly our safest and most profitable market. We plan to export our increasing production of citrus to the socialist market. In reality, production has fallen behind because the irrigation program has been delayed. This is what we have said, you need to make investments to guarantee the two exports, to Western and socialist markets. We are also saving fuel and other materials. In other words, on the export issue it is clear that we had to expand in a period of 5 years to reach $500 million worth of exports for trade purposes and to be able to pay the foreign debt, to face the debt obligations in foreign currency. It is the smallest debt per capita in Latin America and we are one of the few countries that can and that wants to pay the foreign debt in foreign currency. [MacNeil] But you have had to postpone again [words indistinct]. [Castro] We have renegotiated as all countries have done. But our relations with the creditors is different from those of the other countries because we are a blockaded country. Some banks had confidence in us so we have special considerations with them, because of the special conditions. Of course, we also got the same methods of payment others obtained. But what I am explaining about the foreign debt is that we are not expecting the industrialized countries to be responsible for that debt because of our problems. For us this is not necessary. Because of what we know of Latin America's reality and that of the Third World the foreign debt is really insurmountable. [MacNeil] Can we move to defense? In the last year or so you have greatly increased, as you stated, your military capacity. You said on January 2d, you increased your weapons, the number of weapons, by three times. You have roughly a quarter of a million men on active duty, 190,000 reserves, a million people...[interrupted by the interpreter] my question is, my question is, why does Cuba need this very large armed force? [Castro] I am going to correct something: The Armed Forces and the reserves total more than one-half million. The Territorial Troops Militia has more than 1 million... [MacNeil, interrupting] I understood that. [Castro] We have tripled the number of arms but we have multiplied by many times our ability to resist by changing the entire concept. Formerly, the concept was that the Army and the reserves defend the nation. Today, the entire people defends the nation, everywhere, in every corner, in every city, in the fields, in the mountains. They are effectively organized. We have a greater capacity for mobilization than we have weapons. We have a human potential that is much greater even than [word indistinct]. I'm talking about weapons. But we have mines, hand grenades, which we produce. The idea is that every citizen of this country be armed. You ask why so many arms. [MacNeil] Is this a lesson from Grenada? [Castro] No. After Grenada, we intensified this. And we were not the only ones to do so; the Nicaraguans did too. What happened to Grenada did not weaken us. It inflamed us really, and increased our determination, our will to strengthen ourselves and to fight. You ask why so many weapons? The United States, our adversary, is such a powerful country; it is the country that harasses us, the country that blockades us, the country that threatens us with invasion. And you still do not understand why we build up our forces. [Words indistinct] We are not doing this for sport. Is this being asked by the United States, the country that is building, developing a 600-ship fleet, including battleships, submarines, and aircraft carriers; the country that is preparing space weapons; that builds B-1 bombers; the country that builds Pershing and cruise missiles, MX strategic missiles; the country that in peacetime is investing $313 billion, one-third of its budget, taking it from the sick, the elderly? At least we do not do that. And you do not understand that, being neighbors of the United States and feeling threatened by the actions and words of the United States, we are making an effort to defend ourselves? Do we really have to explain that? [MacNeil] You had an invasion scare last fall, last autumn. You had exercises (?in which) you had children digging air raid trenches. Have you relaxed now or (?do you no longer fear invasion)? [Castro] Look, we were relaxed, we are relaxed, and we will always be relaxed. We have been relaxed for 26 years. That is one thing. Now then, the measures we take to defend ourselves...[rephases] We are not going to wait until the Government of the United States decides to attack the country to start to prepare. We have prepared ourselves, we are preparing ourselves, and we will continue to prepare ourselves. But that has to do with our sovereignty and with our independence. Do you doubt that we are an independent country? The proof of independence, the (?supreme) proof is that a country be able to defend itself and its independence in the face of an adversary as powerful as the United States. I have said the following to a visitor: If one day the United States were a socialist country, we would still be concerned about defense. [Words indistinct] our defenses. Because after all, Vietnam is a socialist country. And it is located next to another socialist country, which is China. And it has to take care with its defenses. Hypothetically, if the United States one day became not a socialist country but Marxist-Leninist, and more communist than the USSR and China, we, here next to the United States, would not neglect our defenses. This is a philosophical principle. If one day all these... [MacNeil, interrupting] Excuse me for a moment. Is not one of your motives for seeking or suggesting improved relations with the United States so you can relax your military investment? [Castro] Well, I think we would continue preparing to defend our country, preparing our people, really. I think the only advantage there would be for us, as for any other country, is simply peace. But we cannot aspire to peace by virture of the goodwill, the goodness, and the generosity of the United States. There is talk now, in Switzerland, of struggling for the elimination of nuclear weapons. I agree. And when nuclear weapons have disappeared, if the dream of the elimination of conventional weapons is ever achieved, then that very day -- and not we, who have no hope of seeing that day -- the future generations will be able to say, "we renounce weapons." The day the nations show that the respect for the independence of other nations exists and there is real peace, when the others renounce weapons, when the United States renounces weapons, we will give up our weapons. We will spend our time boxing, we will play baseball, basketball, practice field events, Greco-Roman wrestling [words indistinct]. [MacNeil] Let me ask you to turn your mind back. You have said many times and in some of your speeches recently that your revolution (?has achieved many successes) in illiteracy, infant mortality, and so on. [Castro] I have not said it. It is said by statistics. It is said by the WHO and UNICEF. [MacNeil] All right. By these definitions, your revolution is a success. In what way does it disappoint you now that it is entering its second quarter century? [Castro] [Words indistinct] economic development. In 26 years we have grown at an average rate of 4.7 percent. And during the first (?11) years we could hardly grow [words indistinct]. This is the result of the past 15 years. We have prepared our plans to grow at a good rate during the next 15 years. The premises are assured. They have been agreed on, especially with the socialist countries, which is the best guarantee we have. With regard to the West, we will have problems. Think of the price of sugar and other products, the problems that other countries have. The basic pillar of our development is our relations with the socialist countries. Our economy has advanced, we have learned to be more efficient, and are becoming increasingly efficient. We have learned to practice conservation and to be better administrators. Experience is worth something. That is why was saying it would not be very good business to change ourselves now because we have finished our apprenticeship and acquired experience. But there are a lot more who are learning and who will be better than we are. This would really be a success for us: (?for there to be) tens of thousands better and more capable than we are at present. I have no doubt about this either. Do you ask if I feel any frustration? I do not, we have done more than we dreamed we were going to do. We did not have even a general idea of many of the things we are doing now. I can say that the reality has surpassed our dreams, which is saying something. And we are not speaking of the future. It is different from the beginning, when we spoke of our good intentions; we now speak 26 years after the completed revolution. There are certain advantages in not speaking of what one proposes but rather of what has been done. [MacNeil] You mentioned earlier the October crisis of 1962, which in the United States is called the Cuban missile crisis. (?Can you tell me) how it came about that those missiles were stationed in Cuba? Did you suggest it? Did Krushchev suggest it? How did it happen? [Castro] I spoke about that with Tad Szulc, who I believe wrote about it. All this happened after the invasion at Playa Giron, when there was talk of invading Cuba, after the Kennedy-Krushchev meeting in Vienna. Bearing in mind the things (?they talked about there) the Soviets had that concern and we naturally did too. [MacNeil] After the Bay of Pigs? [Castro] Yes, after the Bay of Pigs. They asked us what measures we thought...[rephrases] They had given guarantees to Cuba. Then we said that the only guarantee, the greatest, and the safest [would be] the fact that an invasion of Cuba would be aggression against the USSR. This was the position we put forward. The concrete idea of the missiles came from them, as I explained to [words indistinct] and we accepted it without any hesitation because we were being harassed: an invasion had just occurred, there were constant pirate attacks, and there was talk of an invasion of Cuba. The missiles had their drawbacks for us. I confess that what I liked least were the political drawbacks of having the missiles here. But from the viewpoint of the nation's security, they represented at least (?what is called) a nuclear umbrella. We were facing a dual danger: a conventional war, a risk of an attack upon our country and a universal risk of general nuclear war. That was our point of view. In our opinion after 26 years, [words indistinct] the decision we made was solidly based and absolutely legitimate. That is not debatable. They are still installing missiles in Holland, and Belgium, nations much smaller than Cuba, and in the FRG, and Italy. During that period, they even had missiles in Turkey. Under international law, the decision we and the USSR made was absolutely unobjectionable. The United States took a position of force [words indistinct] but that the decision [was wrong] cannot be questioned from the moral or the legal points of view. I believe that perhaps the Soviets [words indistinct] a lot the American adventure of installing medium-range missiles near the borders of the Soviet Union. Study this; ask them. They are installing them there. They believe they have the right to install them on the border of the USSR. I still do not understand it [the American decision] because it was a position of force. Let us say that it was a position, but not based on international law or on morality. This point of view cannot be argued. [MacNeil] When the crisis was at its worst, did you believe that nuclear war was a possibility? Did you believe [words indistinct]. [Castro] Yes, I believed it was a possibility. [MacNeil] What did you feel about your role in taking (?things to) that point? [Castro] [To interpreter] Taking what? [Interpreter] Your role in taking it to that point. [Castro] It was not I, it was the United States that took us to that point. It was the United States that initiated the blockade, and that directed the invasion, the acts of sabotage, the pirate attacks, mercenaries invasion and those that talked about invading Cuba. It was the United States, not us. I believe we gave the correct response; I do not have the slightest doubt about that. What were we to do? Surrender? The United States can be sure that we will never surrender. Under conditions such as those, we will fight. From the moral, historical, patriotic and revolutionary points of view, our decision was correct. If we had the bad luck or the misfortune to become involved and we were going to die and even disappear, well then who could we blame for the fact that we were the neighbors of the United States, that we were here, so near to the United States, [laughs] and for the fact that we had as an adversary such a powerful country? This was not our fault either. One would have to blame nature, the Spanish, the English, someone would have to be to blamed. But we were not to blame for that. That was not only my attitude but the attitude of the entire people. It was not Castro's attitude. It was the attitude of millions of citizens of this country. [MacNeil] After Krushchev decided to withdraw the missiles and you protested, as you said earlier, what did Nikita Krushchev say to you? Did he say to you: 'We've made a big mistake, we shouldn't have done this'? [Castro] Look, we would not have opposed finding a solution, we even would have agreed to sitting down to discuss it. We would not have preferred war [words indistinct] at all. We disagreed because the decision was made without consulting us. That is the crux of the problem. I understood that the matter was grave and getting worse. We [words indistinct] against ground-level attacks. This was a decision of ours, completely ours. We saw they were flying low over our ground-to-air missiles, which had a range of about 1,000 meters in those days, and over the medium-range missiles, the missile bases, the missiles and our installations. We noticed that we were risking a surprise attack. We had placed hundreds of antiaircraft batteries in strategic locations around the surface-to-air missiles, and we reached the conclusion, our conclusion, that we could not permit flights that exposed us to the risk of a surprise attack and which destroy the installations. We gave the order, the order to open fire on the planes that were overflying. We gave it ourselves. And we opened fire on the morning of that day. It started on the western side. The first planes appeared in the morning. We opened fire. We were not very specialized. They did not shoot down the first plane. But the planes withdrew and stopped flying in the other areas. We placed all the forces on alert. But we did not have command over the Soviet troops, that is operational command. To tell you the truth, the Soviet command met with us and reported to us on the state of preparation of all the units and everything. But we did not have command over either the Soviet units or the Soviet missiles. That was the reality. Formally yes, we must say that, but operationally, we were not really prepared to exercise that command. We actually did not understand that technology. And we wanted the operational command of those units to be in the hands of the Soviets. But we had command of our troops. They were hundreds of thousands of men. [MacNeil] Are you saying you regret now that you did not have operational command of the Soviet units? [Castro] No, I do not regret that. It would have been a little unrealistic and pretentious on our part to command such a unit of missiles. I do not believe they would have accepted it. They would not have accepted a formula such as the one the United States has with other countries. However, we never discussed the control of our troops, hundreds of thousands of men, our tanks, artillery, or antiaircraft installations. Now, we had the right to make the decision that we made. We informed the Soviets. We are not going to permit these low flights and we are going to fire on them. We informed them. We gave the order throughout the country to fire. And in the morning of that day the firing began from the antiaircraft battery. The U-2 airplane was shot down in the afternoon. And I believe it was an antiaircraft unit that I have in the eastern part of the country. It fired. This indicates undoubtedly that it was a result of the situation created by our decision to open fire on the flights. That antiaircraft missile unit was in the eastern part of the country, integrated with our antiaircraft battery. And that unit opened fire and shot down the U-2. That is the story of the U-2. When you ask if Nikita... [rephrases] We naturally made this part of our historical process, I am not revealing anything new. It really aggravated relations. I tell you this frankly. I also explained that afterwards, we understand that we had no reason to have put up with that problem for such a long time. Nikita made these two points: He avoided war and Cuba was not invaded. Those are the points he made. The basic points. At that time, time had advanced, when 20 years, 15 years had passed, after international detente had occurred, we performed a service. When it seemed that we were approaching war, the leaders of the two great powers were more aware of that danger. They worked and they were able to achieve detente.at that time we were not in agreement with the Soviets. After 15 years, it was shown that they were right. A nuclear war was avoided and Cuba was not invaded. Over the years, we had to give reasons, not the way you did, hut truly objectively, fundamentally... [MacNeil, interrupting] Can I ask one more question about that? Throughout the late summer and early fall of 1962, a Republican senator in the congressional elections, Kenneth Keating, kept saying that the Soviets are putting missiles in Cuba. And the administration kept saying no, no they are not. Kennedy didn't declare a crisis until he saw U-2 pictures confirming it. Was Keating right about August and September 1962? Was he right then? Were the missiles beginning to come in at that time? [Castro] You are not going to leave anything to history. Well, that took a certain period of time, and a series of measures, about 2 months. Now then, the position we maintained throughout that period, and it was absolutely correct, and we made this point at the UN and everywhere else, was that we had the right to use the kind of weapons we considered adequate for our defense, and that we did not have to give an account to the United States about what type of weapons we were receiving from other countries. There were two positions and I am not responsible for statements made by Nikita. I was responsible for what we did. But the two positions: We absolutely refused to give any explanation on the type of weapons because if you have a right, you cannot allow that right to be questioned and you cannot give explanations that begin to put that right into question. Look up our statements in the newspapers. Nikita made other statements, with other meanings. He was trying to explain. Look it up in the newspapers, and you will see that there were two positions. Two different positions. On this, we were not giving any explanations. And Nikita tried to give some explanation about defensive weapons. Well, actually, the weapons were not here to attack the United States. Their purpose was not offensive, or to make war. In that point of view they were defensive. [Castro] But as it was understood internationally, there were no defensive missiles. We refused to give any explanation of any type during that entire period. Look (?it up in the) newspapers. [MacNeil] They were here or planned [words indistinct]. [Castro] I would have to do some research to give you the exact day, to say whether they arrived in August or September. The work to make the areas available, resettle peasant farmers, took some time, I cannot say now how long. They arrived before August, maybe in September or August. I would have to check out the facts. The process took months, several months. [MacNeil] Finally let me ask you a couple of personal questions, if I may. Do you want to go on being the president of Cuba until you die? [Castro] That depends on how long I live. If I were told I can do it now, I believe I can do it. [as heard] I believe I can do my job because of the experience I have, I would say that too. I think I am useful. I do not think I am irreplaceable, there is nothing more opposed to my philosophy. I think we have built something that will last, that will live beyond us, beyond all of us. And if this should not be so, why have we worked so hard? If it were not so, we would have failed. But our work is not built of stone, it is not material. It is of conscience, of moral values and that is lasting, whether we are here or not. I have the firmest hope that others will be better, and the sooner a new generation comes that is better, more capable, that replaces us, the better. If I live 3, 4 or 5 years, perhaps 10, I don't know, but the day that I do not really feel that because of my physical and mental faculties I can do my duty and my work, I will be the first to say so. If I live for many years, you can be sure that I will not die as president of this country. I am the first person who will not want this. (?Do I want) my mind to continue to be illuminated? Of course! I want to arrive at that very minute at which I can realize that I have done my duty [words indistinct] and that others can do it. If I say now that I am going to resign, I am a soldier of the revolution and believe that I can still fight. But I have no personal attachment for the honors that accompany power or (?for power itself). You have a president who is older. Maybe at that age I will not have the physical or mental faculties to exercise my functions. [MacNeil] Just to sum up our conversation on improving relations with the United States, why is this the right time to raise this and, realistically speaking, how hopeful are you that it can happen? [Castro] You ask if this is the best moment? I believe that, if the United States is objective, if it is realistic, I would say it is the best moment for the United States. Not for us. Really, we can go on for 5, 10, 15, 20 more years. Our only duty is toward peace. Our only essential duty, based on our awareness of a complicated (?and tense) international situation, a great, real world economic crisis that has not been overcome...[sentence incomplete] The United States has not really come out of the economic crisis; the United States has been able to expand its economy in 1985 at the cost of the economy of the Third World and even at the cost of its European allies, its Western allies, with its high interest rates that have overvalued the dollar. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been taken from nations of the Third World and of Europe by the United States. The world economy is bearing the burden of the $200-billion budget deficit. The world economy is bearing the burden of high interest rates. In 1985, the U.S. economy grew, but the European economy grew between 1 and 2 percent, and the average did not reach two percent. The United States reduced unemployment, but it increased in England. Unemployment grew in France, it grew in [words indistinct]; in the FRC despite its industrial power it grew to 2. 6 million, the highest after the postwar period. It grew in Italy, it grew in Ireland, the land of your ancestors, it grew in practically all the European countries except Sweden, which has a low unemployment rate. In the Third World [words indistinct], even Venezuela, which receives $15 billion for its petroleum, has an unemployment rate of over 20 percent. That is, U.S. growth has been largely at the cost of other economies, which have not grown, and [words indistinct] unemployment. Japan [words indistinct] an excellent, efficient industry, efficient workers. It has shown its capability. It has problems with the United States. There is Japanese money that has gone to the United States. I read a report this morning about a meeting of bank directors from Western countries, and the president of the FRG bank said the greatest threat to the international financial system is the U.S. budget deficit, and the deficit in the U.S. balance of trade, because the budget deficit of $200 billion is added to the trade balance of $123 billion. [MacNeil] How does that connect with relations with Cuba? [Castro] I am going to explain how it is related, in a general sense. It is related to the international situation, to the need for peace. The United States is becoming the greatest debtor nation in the world, as THE WASHINGTON POST said, and I agree with the editorialist on this. The United States, as Latin America did 3 years ago, is living beyond its production and it productivity. This cannot be kept up. The economy may collapse. Because I do not believe the United States is interested in a war -- no one wants war -- I think that detente, avoiding an arms race, is good for everyone. It is good for the Third World, which without it would not have any hope of solving its economic problems or developing. It is good for the socialist countries, which cannot be interested in war because they are interested in their own development. War does not interest Europe, the industrialized countries of the West. It does not interest the United States. I am convinced the fabulous cost of the arms race cannot be sustained by the U.S. economy. And I think the economy [words indistinct] may collapse within 2 or 3 years. It cannot last any longer. I think [words indistinct] resources, for medical assistance in the United States, for social assistance, for education, for the elderly, the poor. They have already been affected. I don't think that Congress itself can approve new restrictions with much enthusiasm. There are going to be elections in 1985, and then elections again in 1988, and the political leaders have to think about that, too. To stop the arms race and seek a climate of detente would benefit everyone. It would benefit the United States. This is what I see objectively. In reference to Latin America, I say objectively that a political solution is in the best interests of the United States because anything else is absurd. In that sense, the possibility of international detente is objective, for the world and for the United States itself. This is what the allies of the United States want. From that point of view, I think a decrease in tension in any area helps the climate of detente. If a settlement in Central America could be reached, if a solution could be found for southern Africa -- in those two points -- I am sure this would stimulate solutions in other areas. Perhaps a solution can be found for the Middle East. In that sense, we have a duty, and wherever we can do anything -- we are a small country -- but if we can do anything to favor detente we will do it. We were among the first to come out in support of the Geneva meeting, in the speeches I mentioned to you. And as proof that the Soviets appreciated those points of view, they published them widely, out of a sense of duty. Let no one imagine that we need to trade with the United States. This is not true. Let no one imagine we are anxious or impatient to negotiate. We have presented our position and will be consistent with that position. The United States should study [words indistinct]. Relations with Cuba would benefit the United States. Why? Because, thanks to the United States, we have acquired a certain prestige and even a certain degree of influence. That is the truth. Now, as I was saying, many people admire our struggle. The opinion of our adversaries does not greatly matter to me. The future generations will take this fact into account and study it. We came out victorious in that struggle. We knew how to fight on any terrain and we knew how to win. They will even be able to say they knew how to die." So I think history will be objective and impartial in its judgment of all this. But now we are in a world economic crisis, the Third World is in an economic crisis, the hemisphere is in an economic crisis. I think that if the United States is objective it can draw its own conclusions. Let it study what can happen. If the United States, in circumstances such as these of the present, would show its capacity to be realistic, would show its ability to understand that there are changes and that the social changes occurring in Latin America do not have to come about [words indistinct] as enemies of the United States. If it looked at the long range, it would try to erase the dishonorable page of its blockade and its hostility toward Cuba. I am convinced it would benefit, not economically, because Cuba is a very small market, but politically. And it would benefit much more than we would. At least if the United States makes its peace with us it will take away a little of our prestige, our influence, and our glory, even if we don't change. We will continue to be as socialist or more socialist than ever but let us maintain normal relations because one day there may be changes in Latin America that will not be resolved with the method used in Grenada. As long as it is a question of social changes in small nations, as in Grenada, Central America, it is possible to speak of the insanity of resolving it with invasions. If one day there is a change in South America, in Brazil, in Peru, in Chile, and I forgot to mention a country in the southern cone that is in a prerevolutionary situation, and the United States understands it and is worried by this and would like Pinochet to resign and pressures him to do so... [sentence incomplete] And the United States will try to get him to leave because it knows that if the situation continues in the face of the entire people, a terrible economic crisis, a foreign debt of $22 billion, and 20 to 30 percent unemployment, it knows Chile can end up like Nicaragua. The United States now knows or at least understands that if the situation in Chile continues it may have a Nicaragua or worse on its hands in a very short time, in the southern cone. This is the situation we see. How will they resolve it? Will they send a battalion with 82 divisions? Will they parachute them in? Anyone knows this is out of the question. And if these risks exist, I believe it would be in the best interest of the United States to change its concept of this hemisphere and stop being a sworn enemy of social change, and learn to live with them. This is my reasoning. [MacNeil] Does your political nose tell you -- tell me in a word -- that some rapprochement between Cuba and the United States is soon likely? [Castro] I cannot say that. I am reasoning logically, trying to think things out objectively. I am not fatalistic. (?I do not know whether) this second term is going to be warmongering and aggressive. I think this administration has authority, that it has power. No one can accuse it of being weak, or soft with socialism and communism. There is no danger it will be accused of being communist or reformist. It is known to be a government with conservative ideas, a government that is not leftist and not rightist. It has authority. My observations indicate that after the elections some positive things have happened. I do not pay much attention to the statements made prior to elections, but Reagan stressed peace and avoiding war. Mondale did not stress this so much. He took the position that he was going to be harsh. But Reagan capitalized in a certain way on the pro-peace sentiments of the U.S. people. I think he is keeping the economic problem in minds. He has spoken in favor of traveling around the United States, and taking care of its internal problems. If there are international complications, he will not he able to do much, right? But the most important thing after the elections is that he ratified his speech on peace. He spoke of a meeting and there was a meeting. I think the meeting in Switzerland was a great success. He did something more regarding [words indistinct]. They talked seriously, flexibly regarding complex difficult problems. They spoke and reached an agreement. I thought it was positive. This agreement with us was action after the elections. This was proof that problems can be solved through dialogue and not by war. I really thought this was positive. I have observed other positive indications but I cannot say the last word because there is still a struggle concerning criteria. It is still not very clear whether the arms race will stop, whether the militarization of space will stop. At this moment I am not sure whether it is conviction, a decided plan, or tactical positions with a view towards negotiations. Many leaders say the budget has to be passed, with the MX, the bombers, and the submarines or the negotiating position will be weakened. Therefore, I cannot determine whether there has been a firm decision to do this or whether they are merely tactics spinning around a negotiating policy. But we have not lost hope. If international detente is achieved, if the danger of war is lessened, we will be satisfied even if bilateral relations with the United States do not improve. If there is peace here and in other areas, we will be more content. If relations are definitively normalized, we will be even more pleased because it will be a progressive improvement. Peace is good for us all. From the political point of view, I will state my conviction frankly: I think the United States will benefit more than we will. We can sit here and wait quietly and see what happens in the coming years. [MacNeil] Mr President, thank you. -END-