-DATE- 19870524 -YEAR- 1987 -DOCUMENT_TYPE- INTERVIEW -AUTHOR- F. CASTRO -HEADLINE- PARIS L'HUMANITE INTERVIEWS CASTRO -PLACE- CUBA -SOURCE- HAVANA PRENSA LATINA -REPORT_NBR- FBIS -REPORT_DATE- 19870527 -TEXT- CUBA PARIS' L'HUMANITE INTERVIEWS PRESIDENT CASTRO PA251940 Havana PRENSA LATINA in Spanish 1731 GMT 24 Kay 87 -- FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY ["Text" of interview with President Fidel Castro by Roland Leroy of the PARIS DAILY L'HUMANITE; facilitated to PRENSA LATINA in a world exclusive for its dissemination in Latin America; date and place not given] [Text] Leroy: In your famous statement, "History will absolve me," you said time would be the judge. Twenty-eight years have passed since the triumph of the revolution. Do you think you have fulfilled the ideals of your youth? Can one see the combatant of the Sierra Maestra in the chief of state? Castro: Reality has surpassed our dreams. At the time of Moncada -- 26 July 1953 -- we had an ambitious, radical program. It was what we then considered achievable. The Moncada program was not socialist although we already had socialist beliefs. It can be described as a program of national liberation that also established the conditions for the subsequent development of socialism. It laid the foundations for the Cuban revolution. It stated that the country's development could not depend on supply and demand, that it could not be the result of spontaneity, and that it must be a revolutionary objective. It challenged the essential principles of free enterprise as the path of development. It did not yet propose nationalizations but it advocated agrarian reform, and it already contained the idea of rural cooperatives. It foresaw economic development and a great policy of education, health, employment, and housing. It analyzed the composition of the population, and it established the task of uniting the workers, peasants, teachers, and middle sectors. We were saying this was a people to whom one did not have to make promises but needed only tell them: Here it is; fight with all your strength to defend it. I said reality surpassed our dreams. I will give you some examples: At the time of Moncada, we wanted to end illiteracy and grant each child the right to go to school. We were far from imagining our country's present education system. Neither could we foresee that we would have university centers in the country's 14 provinces and a teachers' training program already working to ensure that all primary school teachers have a university education. That was not even a dream at that time. In the health area, could we have imagined medical schools in all regions and family doctors in most neighborhoods? Could we have imagined that Cuba would be among the leading countries of the world in the health field? I could not imagine all of that. Let us take another example: the agrarian reform. Our program was fulfilled much beyond our dreams. Our countryside changed its appearance. We have built roads; we have electrified the countryside -- 85 percent of the homes currently have electricity and in 1990, it will be 90 percent. Unemployment, prostitution, dishonesty, gambling, and drugs have been eliminated. Social security covers the entire population. We have diversified production. Reality has surpassed our dreams even though the job has been much more difficult than we thought at that time. Despite all our efforts, we have been unable to resolve totally the problem of housing. In that aspect, we will need 15 more years. The carrying out of the revolution turned out to be much more complex than we had imagined and what Marx, Lenin, and Engels had imagined. Perhaps there is no more complex and difficult task than to carry out a revolution, create a new society. We have accomplished a great feat, overcoming most of the obstacles: the economic interests hostile to the revolution, the traditions, the complexity in establishing a new production system. At the time of Moncada, we could not have imagined the magnitude of the task. We were acting a bit naively, believing that justice and the good of the people would be respected. We underestimated imperialism; we did not think about the aggression and the blockade -- they were phenomena we were unaware of, that the books did not explain. At that time, we did not notice the tragedy of underdevelopment; we did not gauge the gulf between the developed and underdeveloped countries. Those problems were not addressed in the political struggles of the time. Issues such as unequal trade, the debt, dumping [preceding word in English] and protectionism were not in the minds of the revolutionaries. We had the objective of overthrowing tyrant Batista. We knew that we had to fight hard but all those realities I mentioned were not present in our minds. The difficulties in carrying out a revolution stem from the task itself on the basis of the domestic viewpoint and the international pressures that condemned millions of people to underdevelopment and misery. Those problems are now familiar to us but they were not so on 26 July 1953. Leroy: However, the economic situation led to a strict administration. Can one talk of austerity? What happened to the concern for grating a good standard of living for the population and for investing in production and export activities? Castro: The international economic crisis is affecting all Third World countries. Cuba is suffering the consequences in a smaller degree, because over 85 percent of our trade activities is carried out with socialist countries, and only 15 percent is carried out with capitalist countries. The socialist community guarantees us just prices, which provides us with a solid base for our social and economic development. Our development has never been halted, while the rest of the Latin American countries have experienced recession and stagnation. However, one has to realize that the importance of our trade with the capitalist countries cannot only be measured by the 15 percent trade we maintain with them. In fact, we have to buy from those countries products the socialist community cannot provide us with such as certain foods, medicines, and essential raw materials. The present drop in the prices of our export products is enormous. Let us take sugar as an example. We are presently selling it at 6 cents per pound, which is equivalent to 1 cent in 1959-1960. The U.S. economic blockade against Cuba worsens this situation. The United States bans any import of Cuban nickel and all equipment that could contain it. Why such a low price for sugar? There are several reasons for this; I have to add that the EEC protectionist measures and dumping [preceding word in English] are largely responsible for this situation. The EEC used to import millions of tons of sugar; it now exports millions of tons of subsidized sugar. A few years ago, the United States imported 5 million tons of sugar. It presently imports a little over 1 million tons. Did you know that between 1980-1985 the United States and the EEC spent $60 billion each in subsidies for their agricultural production, and Japan spent approximately $50 billion in the same activity? That policy goes against Third World interests. Cuba, as the entire Third World, has contracted a debt to carry out its development; it is not a very high debt, but it exists. It is important now to point out that the interest on the debt aggravates the financial situation regarding convertible foreign exchange. We have been reducing the imports we had to pay for with foreign exchange, maintaining them to a minimum that covers only our basic needs: This represents $1.2 billion. For the last few years, we have been guaranteeing the payment of the debt interest and a minimum of imports. In 1987, we were forced to adopt strong austerity measures. To the drop in sugar prices, one has to add other circumstances related to that problem. Two heavy droughts and one strong cyclone caused a decrease in our sugar production: In 1986-87, sugar production dropped to less than 7.5 million tons. Curiously, the drop in oil prices also affected us. The reason for this is simple: We import oil from the socialist sector, rigorously save it, and then reexport it, thus creating an important source of foreign exchange. Paradoxically, the drop in the dollar exchange rate represented a saving for us, because our imports come from the EEC and Japan. We can import absolutely from the United States. Currencies such as the mark, the peseta, the franc, the lira, the pound sterling, and the yen moved in an opposite manner than the dollar. Some equipment, which used to cost $600,000, today costs $1 million, and sometimes the cost has doubled. The drop in the dollar exchange rate and the shortage of other currencies cost us almost $200 million in 1986. During that same year, our convertible foreign exchange income decreased by approximately 50 percent. Therefore, we were forced to reduce the imports that we pay for with convertible foreign exchange by 50 percent. Those are the reasons why we had to adopt austerity measures. Despite that situation, we carried out a great feat by continuing our economic development. We have always presented austerity as a need for the economic development of the Third World. We have never exploited the idea of consumption for consumption's sake. I think that within the reality of the Third World countries, creating a consumptive mentality in the population is a great mistake. We do every possible thing to try to improve the material, social, cultural, and spiritual standard of living; and we have been doing this throughout the years. However, we do not make that the center of our actions and our message to the population. We called on the people, because nothing can be done in a revolution without the people's understanding and support. Once our basic material needs were satisfied to the proper extent, we first had to give priority to investments for development. Second, we had to protect, as if they were sacred, our trade agreements with socialist countries. At the same time, during these past years, we have had to make great efforts to defend the country in view of the current U.S. Administration's hostility, which has even led us to increase our defense spending. Leroy: The reduction of investments left you with different options. What were these options? What were your priorities? Castro: I would like to insist on two principles, which we respect in this austerity policy. First, never sacrifice the basic needs of the population, and second, never sacrifice anything for the economic development of the country. We had to make a great effort to replace convertible imports and to increase exports. We had to give priority to investments that replaced imports and increased exports. Despite the fact we were forced to increase electricity rates and transportation fares, there have never been and there will never be increases in food and clothing prices. Investments and social programs, especially those related to education and health, have been maintained. We have not sacrificed development investments. For example, we are building the Cienfuegos nuclear plant, which will allow us to save $500 million annually in fuel, and we are expanding our nickel production capacity, among others. We are trying to be more efficient with our material and human resources. You can compare Cuba with the other Latin American countries in the Third World. What can you prove? In Cuba there is no malnutrition, we have the lowest infant morality rate in the Third World (13.6 for each 1,000 births, with a goal of 10 within the next 5 years), and a life expectancy of 74 years. In 10 more years, we will increase it to 80. You can draw your own conclusions. Leroy: Why did you abolish the peasant free market? What are the results of this action? Castro: The alleged peasant free market should never have been created. It was a mistake. That formula did not exist here. Different viewpoints were expressed and the peasant free market was presented as a way to increase the supply of goods to the population. That was the argument. So we went ahead and implemented a practice that exists in other socialist countries. On that occasion I stated my doubts, but the majority favored the project. I told my comrades we had nothing to lose if we went ahead with the idea. Frankly, we had negative results. A long time ago, we made idealistic mistakes by rejecting material incentives. On that occasion we violated the principle: "to each according to his work." The only thing left to do was to abolish money. However, during that time, Cuba made progress: It was a time of great progress in education, health, economic, and social development. That idealistic concept created inconveniences, but it did not corrupt people. In 1976 we corrected those idealistic mistakes and we created a system of supervision and planning using the experiences of socialist countries. The 10 years that followed gave rise to another type of situation: a certain irresponsible mercantile mentality. Numerous businesses wanted to make profits by increasing prices too much; [that amounted to] robbery. They were not looking for earnings based on efficiency, on the reduction of fuel costs, on human resources. They wanted to make money even at the expense of other enterprises. There was a certain anarchy [words indistinct] a certain competition resulting from the tendency to want to solve everything with money and from the lack of severity in rectifying obsolete work norms. Some of the negative trends were the following: Extremely high salaries were paid, which were not commensurate with production; bonuses and premiums were multiplied, as was overtime pay. Material rewards began to be abused. We were falling into a tendency that was going to weaken the revolutionary spirit, the conscience of our workers. Mistakes were made in planning and in concept. It was especially mistaken to think that socialism could be built spontaneously through simple mechanisms. Socialism is the product of the conscientious and planned work of a society and subjective factors are very important in this effort. By proceeding to rectify our mistakes, we will not go back to the errors of idealism. We become involved in the task of perfecting economic mechanisms and, at the same time, attending to the political and revolutionary work and the struggle against mercantile tendencies. Contradictions between the interests of certain enterprises and of society appeared. A trend to earn more by producing more, but with a lower quality, became evident. Let us go back to the peasant free market. Generally, in socialist countries the peasants have a small piece of land. In Cuba, the first agrarian law limited land ownership to 400 hectares and the second to 65 hectares. Although most of the land was nationalized, many peasants have 5, 10, 15 and even 65 hectares. This is very different from that which happens in other socialist countries, because a peasant can become very rich with 20 hectares. And what happened? The peasant stopped delivering his production to the state despite the supplies he was receiving. Instead, he sold that production freely at a higher price. He was becoming rich. Intermediaries began to appear. What was the result? The development of the cooperative movement, which was essential for the country's economic life, was being halted. We have also witnessed other pehenomena such as the leasing of land. What could we do? Increase sales taxes or eliminate the free market? I personally proposed the gradual elimination of the free market. The cooperatives requested their immediate elimination. This is what we did. It must be taken into account that the peasants' farm production, whether by individuals or through cooperatives, is barely 20 percent of total agricultural production. The largest share of our agricultural production for the domestic demand and for exports is carried out by state-owned agricultural enterprises with a high level of mechanization and technology. The magnitude of peasant production is less than in any other socialist country. We, though a small country, export food for 40 million people. Leroy: The Communist Party of Cuba is involved in a great "rectification campaign." Could you tell us its main characteristics? What is there to rectify? How? Castro: First of all, we should rectify all the negative tendencies that surfaced in regard to the Economic Guidance and Planning System. I already mentioned some of them. The party's role was decreasing. If the building of socialism was going to occur by virtue of magic mechanisms, the revolutionary work was losing its importance. The party was living for its internal life. We said the party's main task is the building of socialism, the country's economic development, the efficiency of the economy, the struggle against all negative trends, and the formation of a socialist and communist awareness. Now the party concentrates on the operation of the enterprises and the work of the administrators. Now it must know how a school, a hospital, the services and an industry work. A trend toward being lax, certain signs of corruption and the incorrect use of resources -- something that had not occurred before in our country -- were becoming evident. There was also favoritism in hiring and there were excessive bonuses. How should we rectify all this? The masses have a sense of justice and they reject any signs of selfishness and favoritism. The people were buying at the free markets but that did not prevent them from calling the free market people thieves. The free market sowed division between the peasants and the rest of the people. Our people have gotten used to quality. They reject any trend toward becoming rich easily. Administration is not a moral, much less a political, force. It is not possible to leave the political work to the state apparatus because it is unable to fulfill that mission. The administration administers; it cannot educate the workers or help in their political formation. The revolution needs a Communist Party. Its role is irreplaceable. Who can move the masses, form the people, and influence the administration? Who can guide, explain, and convince better than the party? In the provinces, the party work is easier than in the capital, perhaps because the ministers, the institutions, and the personalities are in Havana. We have decided to increase the authority of the party secretaries in the 15 municipalities of the capital where we find acute problems. I will give you an example. We have 60 hospitals in the capital. When we received some complaints about their functioning some time ago, I met with all the directors, party secretaries, nursing chiefs, and those in charge of the trade unions and the youth of those centers. We held discussions for 2 days and we made some decisions. Their application was the subject of a monthly meeting directed by the capital's party secretary who reviews the development of the agreed-upon program. In 18 months, the services have notably improved, those activities have been greatly promoted, and the complaints have substantially decreased. It has also been proposed that the press needs to be much more critical. Our press has to delve deeply into the analysis of the problems. The spirit of self-criticism has always characterized the Cuban revolution. Life has shown me that no revolution is possible, no construction of socialism is possible, and no consolidation of socialism is possible without the existence of a party. Leroy: Does this campaign of rectification mean sanctions by the party and the courts? Castro: One imposes sanctions when the laws are violated but the battle for rectification is essentially political rather than repressive. Our workers' level of honesty cannot possibly be compared with what occurs on the rest of the [American] continent. Here, no minister enriches himself; no policeman, no official makes deals. In our socialist state tens of thousands of people daily make decisions ranging from the most simple to the most important. Some people sometimes commit errors and efforts are made to help them rectify those errors. Leroy: Nevertheless, in the United States, in France, and other West European countries, your adversaries portray Cuba as a land of human rights violations, where there are thousands of political prisoners, where the right of free speech is trampled upon. For example, in France, Valladares and Boffil were presented as examples. Castro: Our enemies do not criticize us, they slander us. The slander against Cuba finds a big echo. We know who inspires this type of campaign based on nothing: the CIA. There has never been a revolutionary process as humane as in Cuba. This stems from our traditions which date back to the war against the dictatorship. During those years of struggle, we never -- I repeat, never -- exerted physical violence against our prisoners. That tradition has been maintained throughout these 28 years of revolution. We educated our people in this spirit. There has been no exception to this line of conduct with regard to the respect for the physical integrity of the adversary, even with the U.S. spies. Our laws are severe because we have had to defend ourselves. However, since the triumph of the revolution in 1959, there has not been a single case of torture, assassination or political disappearance here. Since then, no demonstration has been repressed by the police. Meanwhile, we daily see such violence in the United States, West Europe, and South Africa. Why not here? Because the people support the revolution. I read the news agency dispatches and I know well what the policemen in the Western world do every day: They throw tear gas, let dogs loose, repress the peoples. Those actions do not occur in Cuba. Is there another country which can say the same? The figure of 15,000 prisoners is ridiculous. The truth: There are some hundreds of counterrevolutionary prisoners. At the beginning of the revolution we had many prisoners. War criminals, saboteurs, CIA agents are still in our jails. The great majority of the rest were released. We did not do so under pressure. That formed part of our plan, our policy. In our country we have what are known as the "plantados," in other words, counterrevolutionaries convicted by the courts or individuals who had worked for the dictatorship, who reject the prisoner's uniform. Where in the world are prisoners permitted to refuse to wear the prison uniforms? In the United States and Europe they would have been forced to do so. In what prison in the world is this violation of discipline permitted? One of the characteristics of the Cuban people is that they give their opinion about anything. Ask a citizen in our country if they know about anything. Ask a citizen in our country if they know about any case of torture. What hurts is the offense to our people, who have a political and revolutionary culture and, on principle, would not tolerate torture or crimes. The spokesmen of the slander campaigns were frequently confined and were released in good physical condition. Is this not curious? Let us take the case of [Armando] Valladares. This former policeman in Batista's times was arrested, tried, and sentenced for terrorist actions against the revolution. He pretended to be an invalid and a poet. He is neither an invalid nor a poet. He received attention from the best physicians. Who made up Valladares' legend, and who financed the operation? In this case, we can see a violation of the rights of the world's public opinion. The facts, only the facts in history will confirm who is telling the truth. This campaign has hurt us. However, our consciences are clear. Regarding [Ricardo] Bofill, he has been a renegade encouraging a micro-fraction for years. He accused us of being too "independent." He became an instrument of the slanderers. He was released, but he did not honor his commitment and entered the French Embassy. France has not signed an asylum agreement with Cuba. Of course, we denied the permission for him to leave. Otherwise, this would have meant rewarding a man who had entered an embassy by force, using blackmail, seeking to damage the relations between France and Cuba. It was impossible to let him act. However, I have asked myself a question: How many men of this kind would France be willing to admit? Would they admit all those who want to leave the country, those who want to emigrate to the United States? As far as we are concerned, there is not any problem. We are willing to let all those who want to leave the country to do it, provided that France grants visas to them. There is no opposition from us. No one should be misled. We are not erecting the obstacles. Let us take the case of the United States, with whom we had signed an immigration agreement a few years ago. They suspended it. The U.S. Government is granting visas only to those who desert during a mission abroad or those who get out of the country illegally. Thus, any criminal can get out of Cuba and benefit from a publicity campaign. We have no objection to the United States admitting 10,000, 50,000 or 100,000 people [into its territory]. We are also telling France: If you wish, we will grant the necessary permits, but we will not agree to blackmail as in the case of Mr Bofill. Moreover, we want to say: "Good luck," to those who prefer the capitalist society rather than our socialist society. We have always said that socialism is a voluntary task for free men. Prostitution, drugs, gambling, and begging have disappeared from Cuba. In Cuba, you will not see anyone sleeping in the streets. There is no racial discrimination in Cuba. The opposite occurs in the United States. We have no children in our prisons. There [in the United States] they do have them to force illegal aliens to show up. Where is the equality in that country, in which 85 percent of the people arrested are blacks or members of national minority groups? What about the respect for human rights in that country, whose leaders have planned the extermination of Indians and carried out the Vietnam war; a country that is an ally of South Africa and has taken the criminal war to Angola; a country currently directing the dirty war in Nicaragua and genocide in El Salvador; and a country preparing the "Star Wars?" [paragraph continues] It is in that same country where economic measures are taken, leading hundreds of million of people on this planet to hunger. Aren't the leaders of that country the ones organizing the destabilization of developing nations, authorizing germ warfare, bombing a foreign capital, and setting up nuclear bases all over the world? We are being accused of `violating' human rights? Is there another Third World country with results similar to ours in the fields of health, education, culture, employment and, freedom? The slanders against Cuba are an insult to the honesty of the Cuban people and all people in the world. Leroy: The problem of the developing countries' foreign debt is currently one of the world's central issues. Latin American peoples and governments are increasingly firm in their position and solidarity towards this problem. What is your thinking on this? Castro: The Latin American debt is $400 billion. This represents $1,000 per inhabitant and $20,000 per square kilometer. This is a diabolical mechanism for exploiting our peoples. To pay this debt is an economic, mathematical and moral impossibility. The problem has no solution. I feel the Third World countries have financed the development of the industrial countries through slavery which has lasted for centuries. What we have paid for our imports and what we have failed to receive for our exports equals the debt. We have paid the debt with our interest payments and with our net capital remittances to the developed capitalist countries. We underdeveloped countries have been the victims of unequal exchange, dumping [preceding word in English], and protectionism, which are phenomena that accompany the debt. Moreover, the debt in many cases was not incurred by the people; it was incurred n many cases by military regimes, de facto regimes, which in fact had no popular support. The money from those loans was squandered, stolen or fled the country, and yet the people are now demanded to pay through hunger, unemployment, and economic restrictions, when they never received anything in the first place. For all these reasons, I say the debt is unpayable and uncollectable, now or ever. It must be written off and reimbursed to the creditor banks with funds from military expenditures. The creditor countries must be responsible for these payments to their own banks. At the same time, a new international economic order must be established to eliminate unequal exchange. This would even give a new impetus to the developed countries' industries. This would fight unemployment, allow for the full use of the existing industrial potential, and develop trade. Do you know that during the last 5 years Latin America has had to transfer $12 billion to the developed capitalist countries? In 1985 alone, the Third World lost $65 billion as a result of unequal exchange. Currently the debt is not even mentioned, only the payment of the interest. However, not even the interest can be paid. Leroy: The U.S. aggressive policy threatens Nicaragua with military intervention. Reagan is nearing the end of his term. This is talk of a probable trip by Gorbachev. Do you feel things could change? Castro: Up to a short time ago the United States imposed its policies on the region. Currently the Latin American governments are no longer taking orders. The change is significant. Latin America is increasingly aware of its common interests and of the sacrifices imposed on it by imperialism. Latin America needs economic integration. I would like to recall a recent event that confirms the evolution which has taken place on the Latin American continent. The United States made an attempt to have Cuba condemned at the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva. This is the opposite of the situation which occurred in 1959 where Mexico -- taning a dignified and independent stance -- was the only country to maintain diplomatic relations withour country. This time, the only country to follow Mr Reagan was Costa Rica. The Latin Americans thwarted the U.S. maneuver which had been geared towards dividing them and raising barriers between them. This is encouraging for the development of relations with those governments, no matter what their political leanings may be. The Reagan administration has decided to liquidate the Sandinist revolution. It has never made a statement regarding a political solution for Central America. It wants to solve the problem by force and crush the Salvadoran revolutionary movement. All means are allowed. The United States has turned Honduras into a military base. At this moment, U.S.-Honduran military maneuvers are taking place, with the participation of 40,000 soldiers. It is the largest military display ever seen in the region. The threat of direct aggression hangs permanently over Nicaragua. That would be the last resort. Up to the present time, the United States has tried to defeat the Sandinist revolution by means of a dirty war and economic sabotage. The shamelessness with which the United States proclaims its intention to openly interfere in the domestic affairs of an independent country, organizing a mercenary army and offending the sovereignty of all Central American countries, is outrageous. But those intentions have failed due to the patriotism, fighting capacity and courage of the Nicaraguan people. The Sandinist revolution has waxed strong in the face of aggression; it has gained experience. The United States still hopes to destroy the Nicaraguan revolution through economic aggression and a dirty war of attrition. A direct attack, however, is very likely. If the United States launches itself on such an adventure, it will most likely get bogged down. The Nicaraguan people's ability to resist cannot be underestimated. Reagan has not succeeded in getting domestic support for his policy of aggression against Nicaragua. Resistance in the United States is the price to pay in the case of a direct aggression. This is a fact. U.S. policy has been discredited by the Irangate scandal and financing of the contras. We rarely witness such scandal, hypocrisy, and cynicism. This lying and violation of human rights bring to memory the Fascist methods. In addition, this happens while the United States tries to raise obstacles in the way of the Contadora Group's peace efforts for a negotiated solution in Central America. The Nicaraguans can resist the dirty war unleashed against them, but we should not underestimate the likelihood of a direct U.S. attack. The current exercises along all of the Nicaraguan border are not only to pressure the country but constitute training for an eventual invasion. Reagan has become obsessed with the Nicaraguan revolution. The war the U.S. Administration wages against El Salvador is doomed. After delivering [Unreadable text]ms and planes for 7 years, the United States has not been able to crush the Salvadoran revolution. The U.S. Government has underestimated this people's ability to resist, which is stronger than ever. The technological power of imperialism cannot end the people's resistance in El Salvador. The candidate Reagan advocated the theory that Cuba had to be either neutralized or destroyed. The program that his advisers outlined, called the Sana Fe Program, specifically called for blotting out the island from the map if the revolution continued -- a serious threat that forced us to mount great defensive efforts. We had to change our views and prepare ourselves for the war of all the people. The defense of the country should be of concern for the majority of the people, not just the Army. We did not have arms for everybody at that time. Today, we do. We organize and prepare all the people. Each citizen knows what one must do and where one must go in cause of attack. Everything is ready to confront a total blockade, invasion, and the occupation of the country. There has been an unprecedented mobilization. We do not underestimate danger. I think the United States knows the price it would have to pay should it make up its mind to invade us. Cuba has never been stronger. Also, Nicaragua is stronger and the Salvadoran revolutionary movement is more powerful than prior to Reagan's era. We do not advocate that the United States and Cuba continue to be enemies forever. We are willing to live in peace with the United States. We believe the day will come when U.S. policy will be wiser. We are aware, however, that our independence and sovereignty depend on our ability to defend ourselves. Should Cuban-U.S. relations become normal some day, we would not negotiate our defense potential. In Grenada, Reagan fired on a dead body. If he attacks Cuba, he will have to deal with millions of armed men and women. You evoke the possibility of a visit by [Mikhail] Gorbachev to Latin America. I am not sure if that visit will take place in the immediate future. I know he has been invited by many governments. Without a doubt, this constitutes an important political event. This trip arouses much interest, which acknowledges Gorbachev's serious, consistent policy of peace. He now has sympathizers throughout the world and in Latin America. He will be warmly welcomed. As a true revolutionary, I would like to see that visit take place now that Gorbachev is fighting so many myths, so many lies, and carrying out intense actions in favor of peace and disarmament. This visit would be very important. We are not the only ones looking forward to it; numerous Latin American governments would feel honored by it as well. Mark this coincidence. A U.S. senator has just advocated the cancellation of Latin America's debt to prevent Gorbachev from viewing poorly the relations between the United States and Latin America. You can see there is fear of the eventual success of Gorbachev's trip. There is no certainty that this visit can take place soon. The greatest difficulty for such a trip would be that many countries would invite him, and then the political problem would arise of how not to offend anyone when deciding which countries will be Visited and which will not. But he would be welcomed with much more sympathy than Reagan would. Leroy: What is the state of French-Cuban relations? Castro: Regarding French-Cuban relations, perhaps we created for ourselves some illusions following the victory of the left in 1981. I am talking about illusions about how our relations would develop. There was some progress for a while, but not as much as could be expected. Historically, Cuba has maintained friendly relations with France. These relations still exist, but it does not mean we are satisfied. The French position during the meeting of the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva was unpleasant. How should I characterize current French-Cuban relations? Let us say they are normal. Leroy: Do you believe after 30 years of revolution it is possible to maintain the enthusiasm of the 1st day? Castro: There are many theories about enthusiasm. Many thought the enthusiasm of the 1st days would diminish. We have heard that on several occasions. During the first years of the revolution, there were emotional responses and hatred for the tyrant and for injustice, and there was desire for change. A more solid and aware adherence came later. Nowadays, the Cuban people have reached a social, political, and cultural level that has no precedent. They have spent 28 years getting to know imperialism. Millions of young people under 35 have grown up with the revolution. There is the saying that power is destructive. That is true, but does this saying apply to us? We used to live in a class society of rich and poor people, of exploiters and exploited people. In that type of society, society wears out the government. But we are experiencing a different situation: Society has changed and the exploiting class has disappeared. Cuba has procured itself a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. For the first time in our history, the national wealth belongs to the people. There is no foreign or private enterprises here. For the first time, the people have power. Louis XIV said: I am the state. Now, for the first time, the Cuban people can say: These weapons are my weapons, and this wealth is my wealth. I want to ask those who say that Cuba does not respect human rights: Is it possible to violate human rights in a country where the arms are in the hands of the workers? I am going to make a proposal: Give arms to the U.S. and Western Europe countries' workers. Could a government that is hated by the population survive if the workers and the peasants are armed? Going back to your question: In a revolutionary process that keeps moving, enthusiasm never stops growing. Could we attract millions of men and women to the defense of the fatherland if there were no enthusiasm? I am convinced that the policy of rectification currently implemented by our party has strengthened the enthusiasm of the Cubanas. Enthusiasm is shown not only with shouts. It is being expressed among us right now in the form of a great patriotic and internationalist spirit. There are more than 50,000 Cubans fulfilling internationalist missions, and hundreds of thousands have already fulfilled that type of mission. I would say that the greatest achievement of the revolution has been the development of these moral values, the feelings of solidarity in the people. This is a victory of the ideas and values of socialism. I have hopes that mankind will be able to survive the perils that irrationality has created. For the Third World countries, peace and the end Of the arms race are more important because not only Our security but also our right to a decent life and to victory over poverty and ignorance are involved. I cannot see how this victory will be possible without peace, without putting an end to the incredible absurdity of spending $1 trillion annually in military activities. Yes, I decidedly continue being, along with the Cuban people, enthusiastic. I am firmly optimistic about the future of mankind. -END-