-DATE- 19900323 -YEAR- 1990 -DOCUMENT_TYPE- -AUTHOR- -HEADLINE- Castro Interview With Mexican Daily in Brazil -PLACE- CARIBBEAN / Cuba -SOURCE- Mexico City EXCELSIOR -REPORT_NBR- FBIS-LAT-90-059 -REPORT_DATE- 19900327 -HEADER- BRS Assigned Document Number: 000005505 Report Type: Daily Report AFS Number: PA2603192990 Report Number: FBIS-LAT-90-059 Report Date: 27 Mar 90 Report Series: Daily Report Start Page: 3 Report Division: CARIBBEAN End Page: 6 Report Subdivision: Cuba AG File Flag: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Language: Spanish Document Date: 23 Mar 90 Report Volume: Tuesday Vol VI No 059 Dissemination: City/Source of Document: Mexico City EXCELSIOR Report Name: Latin America Headline: Castro Interview With Mexican Daily in Brazil Author(s): Flavio Tavares in Sao Paulo, Brazil on 22 March; all quotation marks as published] Source Line: PA2603192990 Mexico City EXCELSIOR in Spanish 23 Mar 90 pp 1, 10-A Subslug: [Report on interview with President Fidel Castro Ruz by Flavio Tavares in Sao Paulo, Brazil on 22 March; all quotation marks as published] -TEXT- FULL TEXT OF ARTICLE: 1. [Report on interview with President Fidel Castro Ruz by Flavio Tavares in Sao Paulo, Brazil on 22 March; all quotation marks as published] 2. [Text] Sao Paulo, 22 Mar--Words, ideas, and concepts flow without pause as Cuban President Fidel Castro says, in a statement that seems to be a confession: ``Socialism is facing the worst crisis in its 70-year history since the Russian Revolution, while capitalism is living through a time of euphoria. It is a tremendous crisis which we can sense, through the intensification of the Yankees' arrogance and their propaganda, that socialist Cuba will disappear. There are many people, even friends, who have already expressed their condolences to us while we are still alive....'' 3. Castro's face--circumspect and serious--framed by his gray beard and hair, shows the tiring effects of his exhaustive activities during his visit to Brazil. 4. However, as he speaks--standing, seated, or walking through the wide halls of the Anhembi Convention Center in Sao Paulo--Castro shows the enthusiasm of the 1960's and is renewed with each word and histrionic gesture. 5. The situation in East Europe is ``catastrophic,'' Castro says. Most of the socialist nations are not only seeking a return to capitalism, but ``are moving to imperialism's side.'' 6. For example, he noted, the leaders of Poland and Hungary `` perpetrated the most despicable action'' when they voted against Cuba at the UN Human Rights Commission. ``Now they will receive a prize for their action through IMF and World Bank loans. I have no feelings of solidarity toward Lech Walesa. He met with counterrevolutionary worms (Cubans living in the United States) and declared himself an enemy of Cuba. Today he is pampered by the West and the United States.'' 7. Fidel Castro, however, praised Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev: ``His intention was not to destroy the party or socialism, but to improve them and correct great mistakes.'' How are relations with the USSR? ``They are good, and have remained the same despite the fact that we do not like some of the things that are happening over there.'' 8. He stressed: The risks, not only for Cuba, but for socialism, ``will depend on the internal problems they will have and on whether the USSR will disintegrate, as Brzezinski and the United States hope.'' 9. During his seven-day visit to Brazil, Castro never used the term ``perestroyka,'' (restructuring policy). During his visit to Sao Paulo, we accompanied him for eight hours on a day in which he met with journalists representing EXCELSIOR and other newspapers, labor and political leaders, intellectuals, Christian and religious leaders. On that torrid day, he only ``escaped'' a few moments to change his austere military uniform. 10. Castro has always rejected the possibility of following in the steps of the USSR: ``What for? We never experienced Stalinist phenomena in Cuba. There was no purge in Cuba. We did not have one single political prisoner, disappeared or tortured person. We did not conduct a forceful collectivization of agriculture as was the case in Eastern Europe. People used to criticize us, saying we were a satellite of the USSR. Now we are criticized for not doing what the Soviets are doing.'' 11. Although he says that he respects the USSR and its reforms, with which he disagrees, Fidel expresses criticism: ``We learned about inequitable exchange from our trade relations with the USSR. Our sugar and nickel were worth increasingly less every year'' compared to the value of Soviet products. ``I travel on board Soviet-made planes. They are very safe, but they consume twice as much fuel. Their trucks are very bad. They only travel seven kilometers per gallon of gas. These trucks waste the gasoline that they themselves send us.'' 12. With a certain sadness, Castro says that he would prefer ``not to talk'' about his disappointment regarding the false internationalism of some European socialist countries. ``While we sent them prime quality sugar and nickel, they sold us junk built with outdated technology. We built ditches and buildings with that junk they sent us. A Bulgarian or Czechoslovak forklift cannot be sold anywhere in the world. They do not work. We had to train experts who could transform those machines into forklifts that could really lift things. The Hungarian buses go six kilometers per gallon of gas and contaminate cities with smug. The gear box of the Czechoslovak buses only have first and second gears and consume 30 percent more fuel.'' As if he were on stage, Castro imitates the sound made by a strained engine: ``Those buses sound like this: Vroom, vroom, vroom, and then again, vroom, vroom, vroom...'' 13. As if he were apologizing to history, Castro looks in the distance and says: ``To explain all this, it is necessary to go back to Che Guevara's times. Che Guevara used to say that socialism cannot be built based on capitalistic ideas such as benefit and profit. Che was a prophet who saw all things very clearly.'' 14. Castro admits that the present moment is a ``very, very difficult'' time for Cuba, but ``what are revolutionaries good for if not for facing difficult times? 15. Do the events in Eastern Europe mean that socialism as a social, political system could disappear? 16. Fidel gives a withering response: ``There is much confusion and uneasiness regarding what is going on in Eastern Europe. 17. ``From the Cuban point of view, there are two dangerous situations: The first one is the collapse of socialism in a part of Europe. The second is the difficulties that may appear in the Soviet Union. 18. ``But there was a true revolution in the USSR unlike in the other European countries, where socialism was taken to power by a series of historic events. The situation is very different in Cuba. We built and defended our revolution, although we had the support of the socialist field. 19. ``Now, the military and economic threat unites us again. The United States and capitalism hope to defeat Cuba economically. But the situation in each East European country is different. Poland and Hungary are desperately seeking a way back to capitalism. Czechoslovakia is too, although in a different way. The positions of Bulgaria and Romania are still unclear. The GDR is different. The problem there is to see whether the GDR will be absorbed by the FRG, the most powerful European nation. If that happens, there will be no doubt that the capitalist system will completely put away the system that prevails in the GDR, which was built with much sacrifice in the most devastated part of Germany after World War II. 20. ``Socialism will face the same fate as capitalism, which replaced feudalism. Napoleon led Europe to capitalism, but later became a conqueror. Socialism will experience progress and setbacks, but will finally win. Socialism is the kingdom of the future. We, men, have not renounced our aspiration of being angels, being better. Furthermore (raising his voice) there has been no eternal society. 21. ``The liberal ideas that some people want to resuscitate today are dead. Those liberal ideas operated well in the metropolises, but not in Latin America, Africa, or Asia. In 200 years the liberals failed to solve any important problem in Latin America. Today, without counting the things that are taken away from it as a result of unequal exchange, Latin America each year exports capital equivalent to 3,000 tons of gold. Spanish and Portuguese galleons did not take away that much from here in four centuries of conquest. Capitalism takes more out from Latin America each year than the colonists did in four centuries. We have nothing to thank that philosophy for.'' 22. What happened in Nicaragua? How do you explain the disaster of Sandinism? 23. Fidel takes another sip of water or fruit juice from a pink plastic cup, which accompanies him everywhere he goes. This cup is very, very different from the crystal glasses that are on the table. This is ``Fidel's cup.'' It is the one cup that one of his bodyguards uses, for security reasons, to serve him drinks. He said: ``The CIA has tried to kill me on several occasions, even under the ocean. I like to spearfish and they planted a very large and pretty coral that would explode as I picked it up. But we uncovered everything,'' he said before answering the question. 24. ``The Nicaraguan problem is different than all others. They were carrying out a revolution; they were not building socialism. The dirty war unleashed by the United States prevented them from ever developing their revolutionary work. 25. ``In Cuba there was and there is revolutionary work; this keeps the people united. But the war wore them out in Nicaragua. They created the impression that if the Sandinists continued (in power) war would continue. They insisted that the military service was an aggression against the youths and that more mothers would lose their children. There was a brutal wear down. 26. ``Subjective mistakes were also committed (by the Sandinists) in their relationship with the masses. But they were not determining factors in their defeat. The determining factor was the counterrevolution's dirty war supported by the Yankees. However, the Sandinists have thousands of weapons and must retain them; they must preserve them. Without weapons, there would be a disaster. They must remain armed not to carry out a coup d'etat, but to defend the revolution's social achievements, to defend the constitution.'' 27. Castro cites the times of Salvador Allende in Chile as an example: ``Capitalism resisted in Chile when it lost the 1970 elections. Capitalism does not give up, less so can the revolutionaries. To those who are euphoric over the Sandinist defeat, I say: ''The Sandinist cause is not lost in Nicaragua; it had not yet become a socialist process.`` 28. He then refers to Panama. ``The U.S. disaster is about to begin, or has already begun, in Panama. The Yankees got Noriega out and killed hundreds or thousands of men and women, but they do not have money to give to the `fat one.' That is why the `fat one' went on a hunger strike.'' (The ``fat one'' is Panamanian President Guillermo Endara but Castro will not mention him by name). 29. Castro adds: ``They have invented thousands of lies about Noriega. But the United States will become demoralized in Panama. No matter what they do there, they cannot keep the Panama Canal. Panama is not lost,'' he pointed out without elaborating. 30. However, the mention of Panama makes him turn back to Cuba. ``The Yankees invaded Grenada and Panama. Now they are threatening us again. However, they know that if they invade Cuba they will leave 250,000 dead. And when the coffins begin arriving in the United States, the people of the United States will turn against the invasion.'' 31. He asserted that the Cuban people are up in arms. ``There is democracy in Cuba because, in addition to elections every two and one-half years for the People's Councils and the National Assembly, the people are up in arms. The students, the peasants, the workers; in a nutshell, everybody is armed. In which one of the countries that claim to be `democratic' and criticize us, saying we are not democratic, are the people armed?'' 32. The issue serves as a pretext for him to criticize the Soviets again. ``If we adopted the Soviet military doctrine, the United States would win in an eventual invasion of Cuba. We have 10 divisions. The enemy has 50. We would have all the conditions to be defeated. Then, from the stands, the people would watch the parade by the victorious invaders and would cry over their defeat. However, our concept predates the arrival of the Soviet military men. We have prepared the people to defend the revolution; all men and women know what to do in the event of an invasion.'' 33. What will happen to you if the supply of Soviet oil runs out and the U.S. embargo is intensified? 34. ``I have already said that if we wake up one morning with the news that the USSR no longer exists, we will not surrender. If the oil runs out suddenly, we will seek it on the world market. We have already begun drills and exercises for times of crisis. ''We can stop social development for five years or for as many as necessary to resist. Our social development has been so intensive--in housing, education, and public health, for instance--that we can stop it from continuing for five years and it would cause no problems. We have solved in 30 years what Latin America has not solved in 200.`` 35. Castro then talks about Latin American integration, which is perhaps the only way Cuba may try to survive if Soviet aid--which is already beginning to be cut off--is cut. ``We have no customs or tariff barriers. Cuba is open to Brazilian, Mexican, and Latin American capital in general. We can integrate with capitalist forms without forsaking socialism.'' 36. Cuba will not follow the current Soviet model ``because it does not need it,'' Fidel says. 37. ``Cuba is a democratic country. The people take part in the decision-making,'' he notes, but gives no details about the manner in which the participation takes place. 38. ``We never use tear gas or trained dogs against the people. This does not happen in Cuba,'' he adds, prior to stressing: ``The prisoners in Cuba are treated well; they are in good health; they are not tortured.'' 39. Castro does not mention him, but this is an allusion to poet Armando Valladares, who used a wheelchair when he left prison. This is an allusion to reduce Valladares' credibility. 40. The Cuban president denies that agriculture in his country is in ruins. ``Cuban agriculture is able to feed the people with 3,000 calories a day, and we export calories for 40 million other people in different parts of the world.'' He states that only what is scarce is rationed. 41. Castro then speaks of the social achievements in his country. More than 700,000 people work in education. ``In the West, the manufacture of underwear is included in the gross domestic product (GDP), but providing health and education and undertaking a heart transplant are not included in the GDP. Capitalism invented that outrage of measuring production. Even what an army does is included in the GDP, but not what is done in health and education.'' 42. Fidel Castro Ruz believes that ``the countless errors'' committed in Eastern Europe created problems for socialism there: 43. ``Fortunately for Cuba, we are very far geographically from the USSR. We did not have Soviet tanks to defend our socialism. The only tanks we had near us were those of the United States, in an aggressive stance to annihilate us. 44. ``Woe to the country that needs the tanks of another country to defend its socialism. Woe to the socialism that cannot be defended by its people. It does not deserve to be called socialism.'' 45. Castro states that because of this, he does not see the need for political reforms in Cuba: ``We are not opposed to the perfecting of socialism, but we believe that socialism is not defended by destroying the party.'' 46. In Sao Paulo and other Brazilian cities, Castro was only seen irritated when asked about some Brazilian leftist leaders' suggestion that he hold a plebiscite or direct presidential elections. 47. ``If I were to arrive in Cuba and tell the comrades that a plebiscite or direct presidential elections must be held, they would think I was crazy. They would say: `Fidel was given some potion in Brazil which made him crazy.' No plebiscite or direct election is needed in Cuba. There are elections every two and a half years. The plebiscite has been these past 30 years in which the people, with weapons in hand, supported the government and resisted the United States,'' Castro concluded. -END-