Latin American Network Information Center - LANIC

Castro Interview With Brazilian TV During Visit
Havana Cubavision Network
BRS Assigned Document Number:    000005817
Report Type:         Daily Report             AFS Number:     FL3003150090
Report Number:       FBIS-LAT-90-063          Report Date:    02 Apr 90
Report Series:       Daily Report             Start Page:     14
Report Division:     CARIBBEAN                End Page:       21
Report Subdivision:  Cuba                     AG File Flag:   
Classification:      UNCLASSIFIED             Language:       Spanish
Document Date:       28 Mar 90
Report Volume:       Monday Vol VI No 063


City/Source of Document:   Havana Cubavision Network

Report Name:   Latin America

Headline:   Castro Interview With Brazilian TV During Visit

Subheadline:   Further News Conference

Author(s):   unidentified reporters, in Portuguese with simultaneous Spanish
translation ; date not given--recorded]

Source Line:   FL3003150090 Havana Cubavision Network in Spanish 0200 GMT 28
Mar 90

Subslug:   [Fourth of six installments of ``Fidel in Brazil'' series, including
``portions'' of interview on ``Roda Viva'' program and news
conference in Brasilia and Sao Paulo, Brazil, respectively, with
President Fidel Castro by unidentified reporters, in Portuguese with
simultaneous Spanish translation; date not given--recorded]

1.  [Fourth of six installments of ``Fidel in Brazil'' series, including
``portions'' of interview on ``Roda Viva'' program and news conference in
Brasilia and Sao Paulo, Brazil, respectively, with President Fidel Castro by
unidentified reporters, in Portuguese with simultaneous Spanish translation;
date not given--recorded]

2.  [Text] Roda Viva Program:

3.  [Reporter] You said that the Soviet Union is unable to manufacture even one
suit, even though it sends (?missiles abroad).  In the last speech you gave at
the congress of the Federation of Cuban Women, you said that Hungarian buses
poison the world. Did it ever occur to you that the socialist system of
production has failed in the production of consumer goods?

4.  [Castro] I think there are mechanisms that are associated. It is tied to
the isolation in which they lived. It is associated with the lack of a culture
of quality. To a certain degree, it can also be linked to the fact that since
they could not import products because they had no currency, they had to
manufacture them in any way they could. Perhaps if they had had a more
developed trade, they might have been able to specialize in certain quality
products and import the rest. That is the advantage of world trade. However,
they were isolated for a very long time and they had to manufacture everything.
All these factors and the mechanisms they used had some influence on the

5.  These things conspired against quality. If I pay you to manufacture shoes
in an enterprise and I pay you per shoe, if I pay you to make 30 pairs of
shoes, if I pay you to make 30 pairs [repeats himself], if I pay you 25 [unit
of currency not specified] for 25 pairs, that formula conspires against the
quality of the shoes. You then manufacture shoes as quickly as possible. I
believe in setting a reasonable standard to solve a problem. I believe quality
must be a fundamental factor. Otherwise, you will manufacture any shoe,

6.  If you manufacture things based on outdated technology and you do not
upgrade it, you will manufacture shoes of poor quality. If the raw material you
use is of poor quality, your product will be of poor quality. It is a
combination of factors.

7.  Productivity is not dependent upon a man's animal strength--we have to call
it something--the physical effort the man makes. Quality and productivity are
increasingly being associated with technology. For example, it may take a
traditional lathe worker seven hours to manufacture one item. No matter how
skilled that man is, he cannot manufacture two identical parts, even though he
measures everything, takes every measurement. No two items will be identical.
There are no two identical parts, no parts that are exactly the same.

8.  If you program an automated lathe, instead of making the part in seven
hours, it can make it in 20 minutes. It has thus multiplied its productivity by
who knows how much. It has also multiplied its quality because all the parts
manufactured by these machines are identical. The parts are used to make
different types of equipment.

9.  I would say that today, in many things, productivity and quality are
dependent upon technology. The time will come when robots manufacture things.
Robots do not make mistakes. They do not get distracted. Do you not remember
the sick woman? Do you not remember the bride? They are turning the screws
there. [laughter] The Japanese are filling their factories with robots.

10.  I have seen some documentaries on modern industries and I can see that
there is a tendency toward an industrialized world. The workers do not
manufacture merchandise. Merchandise is produced by machinery and the workers
manufacture machinery and factories. That is reality. For example, I recently
saw a washing-machine factory. I did not see it personally but I saw it on a
videocassette recording. I asked that it be studied. The factory manufactures
kitchens [as heard]. The man does not do anything. The steel sheets come out
here. There are some people assigned to supervise the process. In the end, the
washing machine is manufactured. They are all identical and of high quality.
They manufacture the kitchen, everything, like that.

11.  Now, in the superindustrialized countries, men make factories and
factories make merchandise. In many places, men no longer make merchandise.

12.  [Reporter] From what you have said, it appears that you are looking for
new economic and trade partners. Yesterday you mentioned the creation of large
trade blocs in Asia, Europe, etc. You proposed the creation of a Latin American
bloc, but Latin American countries are economically ruined.  Do you think that
a bloc of poor countries is possible? Do you think that the peoples would be

13.  [Castro] You spoke to me yesterday. Were you not at the reception

14.  [Reporter] Yes.

15.  [Castro] You asked me if we would not just be integrating misery.

16.  [Reporter] Yes.

17.  [Castro] That was the word you used to describe poverty.  What you said is
clear. The world is going to belong to large economic communities. Europe is
forming an economic community, despite its centuries of war and the fact that
no one understands the other's language. The languages are very difficult. It
is not like us speaking here. You speak in Portuguese and we speak in Spanish. 
These are the most prominent languages we have in this hemisphere. They speak
Dutch, German, Italian, French, Spanish. Despite all those languages, they have
been able to integrate their economies and they are integrating their [words
indistinct]. None of these countries, which are much more developed than us,
can imagine their future without economic integration. They do not want to even
think about it.

18.  The United States is a large economic community. Japan is a large economic
community. China will be a large economic community. The day the Chinese
manufacture like the Japanese, I do not know where they will distribute their
merchandise. Everyone has a solution.  Everyone has a solution. [repeats
himself] If everyone follows the Western style, the world's oil will last a
10th of the time it should last and environmental pollution will be 10 times
worse. Models of society have emerged that cannot be taken as examples, as
models. If India, China, and everyone else attained the same levels as Japan,
then no one knows what can happen in this world, especially with the use of
robots and technology. Even the world's raw material will be used up. Societies
have been developed that are far from being examples for the Third World.

19.  The USSR, in one way or another, will be a large community in its day. It
has fabulous resources. It has a scientific base. Although it may not apply it,
it still has a scientific base. It has large collectives of scientists.

20.  Now, will there be a future for small and isolated countries in the world
of tomorrow? Do they have a future? It can be confirmed that they are very
poor. It can be confirmed that we have a large amount of poverty. However, if
we do not unite our forces, if we do not unite our knowledge, if we do not
unite our resources in one way or another, we will not have any future in the
year 2000, in the future, and in the near future. We will once again become the
Indians. That is what I was saying yesterday in the meeting at the America
Memorial. We must be very careful. We have to be understood, studied, helped,
otherwise we will become even more underdeveloped. If the abysmal development
and technological trend continues, we will become the Indians of the year 2000.
We will once again be discovered, colonized. We are already semicolonized,
neocolonized. Others want to discover and conquer us and to treat us....
[changes thought] Even though we wear suits, even though we wear clothes, and
have a few modern things, the United States treats us like Indians. Anyone who
is informed knows what type of relations the United States has developed with
Latin America. They despise us. Now that they feel like they are practically
the owners of the world, now that they feel like they are practically the
owners of the word [repeats himself], they are more arrogant, more
triumphalist, more [word indistinct].  They do not even remember us. Anyone who
is familiar with discussions between the United States and Latin American
leaders would blush from the way they treat us, their superficiality, the
simplicity with which they speak to us. We have.... [changes thought]

21.  That is true; but I am certain that between Cuba and Brazil, the two
examples they set, many common things can be accomplished, even with two
different economic and social systems. We can exchange technology. We can even
have industrial exchange. There may be industries you have which would benefit
us here, Cuban-Brazilian industries. We have the technology. We even have
capital. Brazilian industries could exist in Cuba. There are other businessmen
there. There is a Cuban enterprise that has a partner there. We can have a
joint enterprise.

22.  If you want a hotel, one who wants a hotel does not want just any other
thing. He might say: Let us assemble a freight-elevator factory. Of course, we
prefer to manufacture exportable products.

23.  Yesterday I said, and I said it for the first time, that I arrived at this
conclusion and I clearly saw the possibilities for us to have economic
integration this way. It is very important. We have the biotechnology,
pharmaceutical, and advanced medical equipment industries. We can have a
factory here. We can be partners with Brazil.  We will bring the technology. We
will import capital. We will identify its market. There are many possibilities
for this country.

24.  [Reporter] Does it not seem like a contradiction for the Brazilian
businessman to invest in Cuba for the purpose of making a profit? How can you
explain that contradiction?

25.  [Castro] [Words indistinct] I will explain it to you. Any country would
like to own everything, even the Brazilians. You have multinational firms here.
You would like to own [chuckles] the multinational firms but you do not have
the capital for it. I do not think it would be reasonable for us to build a
sugar center [words indistinct] in a mixed society. I do not think it is
reasonable for us to manufacture a lot of things for domestic consumption, but
if we can do it for exports, we should.  If we produce items for domestic
consumption, they could be cheaper than buying them abroad. We could
manufacture them with a firm from another country.

26.  We begin with the hotels. We not only have hundreds of kilometers of
beaches and excellent areas, we are combining through causeways the keys, that
have magnificent beaches, and the mainland. Cuba has the ability to build
250,000 rooms. It would be a business worth billions [currency not specified].

27.  If you do not have the capital, if you do not have the market, if you do
not have the technology, because tourism is also technology until you learn it,
then you do not have anything. But if you have the market, capital, and
technology, then that is good. Cuba can say: In 50 years, we can do this with
our own resources but we do not need that much money for those 50 years. We
need it for eight, 10, or two years. Then, it is mutually convenient. It is a
practical matter. That place that otherwise would not be developed, that air,
that sea, in a world that is desperate because of pollution, would be developed
this year.

28.  This does not only apply to tourism. There are countries that have the
technology, the capital and the markets. I think we can be their partners. Now,
we have to give them facilities, otherwise they will not invest in our country.
They can recover their capital in a short time.  We would also recover our
capital in a short time because the hotel is not just being built with their
capital, but also with ours. They use their convertible currency for certain
materials, elevators of a certain kind that must be very safe, electrical
plants, or other articles. We build. We supply the work force. We manufacture
the cement, sand, rock, machinery for construction. We have marble. We have
excellent marble. We own approximately half of the hotel. If you do not give
this company this opportunity, it will not invest. You cannot cling to the pure
idea that there will not be a single foreign investor here. At the same time,
however, I am proposing something else: that we make foreign investments
abroad. It becomes a kind of compensation and it becomes a kind of reciprocal
guarantee. You have things there and we have things here.

29.  For example, there are many obstacles to economic development in the
world. You can find a tariff obstacle.  You may have the technology but you
cannot overcome this tariff obstacle. Then you have no other alternative but to
make a foreign investment to overcome the tariff obstacle to be able to export
the product. Life is very rich in possibilities. We can do this without
abandoning any of our principles because it is the state that is doing this, in
one way or the other, and it is doing it for the people.

30.  What will we get out of it--socialism throughout all of Latin America to
create integration, or will we become capitalists? I do not think either one of
these things is necessary for integration. This is one of the more interesting
things of which I have become aware.

31.  [Reporter] Regarding the example you just gave, do you not think we are
heading toward the definite death of ideology and toward a new era of
pragmatism between countries?

32.  [Castro] The death of ideology?

33.  [Reporter] Yes, of ideology.

34.  [Castro] I do not think that ideology will die. I will tell you something;
everything will leave something. Christianity was an ideology and it left a lot
of things that are still valid, such as its statements on the poor, the rich,
and many other things. I have gotten a lot of ideas from the Bible, which I
feel have political validity. The French Revolution was an ideology and it took
on many different forms. It advanced and retreated because of Napoleon's
errors, because of his blunders, and the craziness that overtook him. He wanted
to invade the old empire of the czars and create a Napoleonic empire. In the
end, the French Revolution retreated and the absolute powers once again
returned. Nevertheless, the ideas of that revolution, which advanced and
retreated, are the ideas that prevail today in a large part of the world. 
There are some ideas that are eternal, such as the unity of man, the liberty of
man. These things did not always exist. They emerged, and each of these ideas
will leave behind its best features. Ideology will never be lacking. It will
never be excessive. Ideology to us is the solution to the problems we have
discussed, the equitable distribution of wealth. To us, ideology is a dream
that a man has.  He works according to his ability and he receives things based
on his needs. That is what communism is. It is not socialism. We are in the
socialist stage where man works according to his ability and he receives things
based on his work. We have diverse salaries but we swear that there is not much
of a difference between the lowest and highest wages. Of course, our socialist
formula implies that a prominent doctor will earn more than another kind of
doctor. There could also be a worker who is very specialized and who earns more
than a doctor. Perhaps one day, if you want a gravedigger, you might have to
pay him more than you pay a doctor because he is the one who will do the

35.  [Reporter] Shortly before we began to record our interview, we commented
on the package of Brazilian economic measures and we spoke primarily of the
confiscation of checking accounts [cuentas corrientes]. It is being said that a
revolution occurred in the Brazilian economy as of 15 March. You led a
revolution in Cuba. In the beginning, did you confiscate checking accounts in

36.  [Castro] This is a topic you and I discussed, commented upon, and you
asked if I could speak about my experience. I should avoid analyzing measures
taken by the government because I would then be getting into a domestic matter.
If I did, one would be able to say that my remarks are a lack of courtesy. I
can speak and think in general terms. I think.... [changes thought] I am very
interested in all the measures you take because I am aware of Latin America's
problems, the beating it has taken from inflation, all those things, the debt,
and the enormous difficulties any Latin American government has today. I am
always very curious to see what measures are being developed, how they will
resolve those problems. Latin American governments have been trying for some
time to solve these problems and it has been demonstrated that it is very
difficult. That is why my attitude is one of observation, which is what I will
do with much interest. [Words indistinct] our wealth, our knowledge, our
experience on these topics. As a politician, a leader, this helps me reflect on
the magnitude of the problem and on where certain formulas can solve these

37.  In speaking of this, I was asked how we conducted our revolution. We took
measures. At that time, we had inflation problems. Batista and many of his
people had taken a lot of money. There was a lot of money in the hands of
(?Batista supporters) to fight the revolution. We changed the currency but when
we changed the currency, we said: make deposits. Anyone who has money at home,
deposit it. We returned a portion of the money to those who did have money--not
all of it. However, if a person had $1,000, we returned his $1,000 to him. Up
to certain amount, we returned the entire sum of money. After a specified
amount, the money was confiscated. This is the money that was not in the banks.
We did not touch the money that was in the banks. Some people even had
half-a-million pesos. The peso was equivalent to the dollar. Some people had
the money in the bank and we did not touch the money in the banks. We have
never touched the money that was deposited in the banks because we have always
given priority importance to the people's security, so the people feel secure
in keeping their money in the bank.

38.  Resolving inflation was not our objective. Our purpose was to take the
money from all those people who had robbed the money, who had hoarded money and
hidden it, buried it, or had it abroad, and were going to use it against the
revolution. We had two different objectives.  I really do not know how we would
have.... [changes thought] We have avoided measures--that is not policy--we
have avoided measures.

39.  Of course, we defend ourselves in other ways. We have a number of rationed
products. They are regulated and sold at economical prices. That has been our
world trademark. No one gave us financing, but if we issued money [si nosotros
emitiamos] and the price was free, we would not have that regulation. We have
not had to do that because of our country's condition. Any injection of money
into circulation would seriously affect the sectors with the lowest incomes.
That is why the child who needs something is guaranteed he can get that item at
an economical price, even a subsidized price. Many things are that way. We also
have a parallel market for those who have a higher income and want to buy a
product that is much more expensive. That is an important source of revenue.
Because of our system, on account of our system, we are also able to subsidize
certain products and ask a high price for others. For example, we subsidize
milk but we put a high price on beer, rum, cigarettes, all those things which
are not essential and which, at the same time, to a certain degree help health

40.  We also know that when we want to collect money....  [changes thought] At
this time, we are issuing money. We have not had the disaster of ridiculous
prices for the people's basic food items. Prices have been maintained.  Since
we are in a development program, we say we will issue 400 million [pesos]. We
know how we will collect it. We know what raw material we have to import and
what product will need the raw material. With a relatively small expenditure of
hard currency, we can collect large sums of money internally. These are
mechanisms we use to defend ourselves because the demands for money could lead
to problems. If they do not affect the cost of the food you are buying, it
could affect interest in work. A married couple could say: One person working
is enough. A lack of interest in work can result. That is why we are careful
about these phenomena, which we cannot describe as inflationary, but as a
surplus of money in circulation above the total amount of goods and services

41.  In our condition, we have not been able to.... [changes thought] You
cannot imagine how glad we are every day to have been able to escape the
scourge of inflation. We financed our development. We do not have a World Bank,
Inter-American Bank, IMF, or anyone else who loans us money. We have to get it
from our own resources and our own imagination.

42.  [Reporter] You try to distinguish between the Soviet Union and other East
European countries that are getting away from socialist regimes, but it is
evident that the USSR is also adopting measures that are more capitalist,
especially now. This is also happening in African countries which had adopted
the socialist regime. Do you never feel like you are observing troops marching
in one direction and then in another, so that they are then wandering?

43.  [Castro] Troops that march in the same direction, if they are heading
toward the enemy, are the ones that are marching correctly. That is what I

44.  [Reporter] Yes.

45.  [Castro] There are no two identical situations. The USSR is making
reforms. It is introducing certain elements. It is introducing mixed societies
while we are doing it. The USSR is talking about (?privatizing) land.  We do
not talk about that. We carried out a different kind of agrarian reform. We did
not force anyone to unite. There are still 70,000 independent peasants in Cuba.
No one can tell us about independent peasants because we know who they are and
what they produce.  They are privileged because we helped them in everything.
We forgave their debts every time there was a drought or disaster. The Cuban
peasant is [words indistinct]. We have cooperatives that were formed
voluntarily. We have modern state enterprises that are highly mechanized. We
did everything differently. For us to begin seizing our sugarcane plantations
and distributing it into parcels would ruin us. We would cease to be sugar
producers. We would even cease to have the opportunity to agree with you, to
elaborate foreign policies on the development of the sugar industry as one of
the world's largest sugar producers. We could not do that.

46.  We would not even have anyone to whom we could give that land. Our large
rice plantations work because people plant with airplanes and work with
machinery. They harvest with combines. They are located in distant places. You
cannot find people in Cuba who will go work in an isolated place just to lease
a piece of land. You cannot do that in reality. You cannot do that in practice.

47.  The USSR does that but the Soviet Union has not said that it plans to
construct a capitalist economy. It has said it will maintain socialism. It has
said it will maintain its essential principles. The USSR also has openly said
it is heading toward a market economy and toward the privatization of state
lands. The USSR has not done this.  It is acting with more prudence in all this
and with more care. They are testing the ground. At no time have I heard one
more word about what they are doing.

48.  We will assume that the USSR wants to make a few changes. [claps hands
once] It is none of our business.  Everything depends on future relations. We
do not necessarily have to be a country that is organically socialist,
organically pure to trade with the USSR. China has also applied a number of
reforms and we maintain excellent economic relations with item and those
relations are growing. The USSR can apply whatever reforms it wants to apply
and we can maintain our economic relations with it. It needs our sugar, nickel,
cobalt, citrus. It is even increasing its demand for biotechnology, our
pharmaceuticals, and medical equipment. This year we will provide the USSR with
about 300 million rubles worth of products.

49.  [Reporter] [Passage indistinct].

50.  [Castro] Yes, that is the situation. No two situations are alike. I think
that the right thing is for everyone to decide his own direction and that the
rights of others be respected, including our right to take the direction we
feel is appropriate.

51.  [Moderator] We appreciate the interview with Mr. Fidel Castro. Would you
like to make a final observation before you say goodbye to our television

52.  [Castro] I have felt very good. I have felt all the warmth of hospitality,
friendship, and the familiarity of the Brazilians, especially here in Brasilia.
The people are very good and polite here and in Sao Paulo.

53.  Yesterday, during the final toast given at a dinner hosted by the
governor, the comrades were speaking and Daniel [Nicaraguan President Daniel
Ortega] said: I will soon leave. I will be leaving soon. When I finished, I
said: I will not leave. I am staying. I wanted to say, with great sincerity,
[chuckles] that my body, my weight, my baggage will all leave but my heart, a
large part of my heart, will remain here in Sao Paulo.

54.  [Moderator] [Passage indistinct].

55.  Sao Paulo News Conference:

56.  [Reporter] Mr. President, on the first day of President Aylwin's
government, he renewed diplomatic relations with several countries. A large
majority of the Chilean public was surprised that Cuba was not among those
countries. What do you think of this situation? During your meetings in
Brasilia, did you have any talks with the Chilean delegation which would
indicate that the renewal of relations would be soon?

57.  [Castro] I think one of the countries that has shown the most solidarity
with Chile during these past 17 years is Cuba. Cuba is one of the countries
that has received most of its exiles, which has (?supported) it the most, which
has collaborated with it the most. Cuba is one of the countries that has shown
more solidarity with the struggle of the Chilean people during these past 17

58.  Now the presence of a Cuban delegation at that change of government was
not up to us. It was up to the current authorities. It was up to the previous
Chilean authorities and the current Chilean authorities. The decision to
establish relations with Cuba is the Chilean Government's affair. It is a
decision that they have to make.

59.  As you now, the transition of government has taken place under
exceptional, slightly irregular, conditions. I also think that the country is
in a complex stage for transition. There is a certain amount of duality of
power there. That is unquestionable.

60.  You know that Cuba is a [word indistinct] country, a controversial
country, a complicated country in the international sector. One always
considers what the United States thinks, and the United States does not want
diplomatic relations reestablished between Cuba and Chile.

61.  To the United States, the enemy is now Cuba. It does not lose sleep if
relations are reestablished between Chile and other countries but it is very
concerned if relations can be reestablished with Cuba. Everything that is
related to Cuba is subject to special hostility and pressure from the United
States. I think that the new authorities should consider internal and external
circumstances before taking this step.

62.  I had the opportunity for a few moments to be with several heads of
states, including Chilean President Patricio Aylwin. I do not recall ever
having met him before. Nevertheless, we greeted each other in a very natural,
spontaneous manner. Of course, we did not discuss the problems of relations
between Chile and Cuba. We exchanged views on the inauguration. We exchanged
stories about the ceremony, what happened here, what happened there. At the
ceremony at the stadium, he told me about some incidents, some characteristics
of some people who had participated in the ceremony. We talked about that. We
saw each other again and we joked in a cordial environment, in a friendly
atmosphere. I say this honestly and I should add that this Chilean political
figure made a good impression on me. I have the feeling that he is a person you
can talk to, that communicating with him would not be difficult.  This,
however, was not the appropriate time to discuss the topics you asked about. It
was also not conceivable that Cuba should appear anxious and impatient to renew
diplomatic ties with Chile.

63.  In this case, it was not Cuba that broke relations with Chile, it was
Pinochet. He broke relations with Cuba after his coup d'etat and I think that
the initiative to renew relations should come precisely from Chile because of
this change of government.

64.  [Reporter] I would like to know how you see the role of the Solidarity
Trade Union and Lech Walesa in today's Poland knowing that Solidarity has
relations with the Church, that it is adopting IMF measures, and that it hopes
for financial assistance from the United States, which is something that is not
happening in general.

65.  [Castro] You want to know what I think of Walesa's role or Solidarity's

66.  [Reporter] Both.

67.  [Castro] To tell you the truth, I feel no sympathy whatsoever for Walesa.
Walesa has even met with counterrevolutionary worms and he has declared himself
an enemy of the Cuban revolution. Walesa has been spoiled by the West and the
United States.

68.  I imagine that the Solidarity Trade Union are a phenomena resulting from
errors of all sorts committed by that revolutionary process that pretended to
be socialist at one time in Poland. Certain people who did not sympathize with
socialism took advantage of the circumstances. They received a lot of
incentives from the West.  In the end, they gained an unquestionable amount of
strength in the country and they comprise a component of that antisocialist
trend that is occurring in some East European countries.

69.  The relationship between Walesa and the Church is something I respect.
They each have the right to sustain the kinds of relations they consider to be
the most convenient.

70.  No one knows what Walesa's ideology is. What is evident is his proximity
to the political positions of the West and to the economic and social concepts
of the West. Today, he supports a government that is making the transition to
capitalism. Today, he is doing the opposite of what he used to do. He used to
organize strikes and protests against low wages, the cost of living, etc., but
now it turns out that the wages are lower than ever. The cost of living has
risen more than ever. A new, very strong workers' movement is developing. 
Because of these circumstances, everyone's role has changed. Walesa supports
IMF and World Bank measures.  Walesa supports the policy of the Yankee
specialists, of Bush's advisors who are planning the transition from socialism
to capitalism while the other trade unions are today defending the rights of
the workers to better wages and better standards of living.

71.  There is no doubt that many dreams have developed in Poland. They think
that a deluge of dollars and assistance will come from the West. They are not
going to be happy with anything less than one car per family. This is all a

72.  The country owes around $40 billion and the debt is growing. The demands
made upon it by the IMF includes denationalization and privatization of
industries, dismantling of socialism, but not even this way do I think they
will be able to fulfill even a portion of the chimeras they are dreaming about.

73.  It is possible that some may begin to discover the good part of socialism.
It had its bad parts and its good parts.  Once everything is privatized, even
the schools and hospitals, once they see what unemployment means-- because the
reconversion of the economy, and no one knows how long this will take, will
result in millions of unemployed workers--once the peasants see that they have
no guaranteed prices for their products, they may start to feel nostalgic for
the bad socialism they had because the socialist model they had was not a good

74.  They will have to work. They will see that capitalism is less
paternalistic than socialism. They will have to find products that are good for
something, that are good for trade. Cars will not fall from the sky. Life in
Warsaw will not be like living in Paris. They will have to find markets for
their products, and I do not think they will have an abundance of clients
because what is no good, is no good. Many of the things they manufacture are
made with outdated technology and are of poor quality because one of the
drawbacks of the methods they selected to construct socialism, besides
alienating people, is that they encourage workers to manufacture poor-quality

75.  We are observing a new, very interesting stage, which will be of the
highest value to sociologists, psychologists, politicians, specialists, and
economists, to see how that phenomenon of the transition from capitalism
[corrects himself] from socialism to capitalism progresses under Europe's
conditions. It is possible that they may experience new forms of
neocolonialism. Europe is euphoric and impatient to attain all those natural
resources. It is impatient to make big investments in those countries, to
obtain big profits, and to multiply its value. Those of us interested in this
matter will have the opportunity to see how events unfold.

76.  [Reporter] President Fidel Castro, during these past two days in Sao
Paulo, you cited many statistics on the success of the Cuban revolution in
several sectors, such as health, education, agriculture, and sports. There
should be some sector in which the Cuban people are not satisfied. What do the
Cuban people complain about on a day-to-day basis?

77.  [Castro] Hmmm. Cubans have resolved a lot of problems but we have not
solved every problem. I have spoken about the great successes in those fields.
That is what I was asked about. You could have asked me, if you like, for an
average of how many eggs the chickens lay. I can tell you what the conversion
is into animal feed and poultry meat, how much milk our cows produce, how much
protein our citizens eat, how many calories they consume, and many other
things. Our country is not developed. It is a country that is making a great
effort to develop in the economic and social fields.

78.  I can guarantee, however, that there will no great social developments if
there are no important economic developments. Can a country count on having
almost 300,000 professors and teachers if it does not have a material basis
with which to sustain those programs? You would not be able to have programs
for health, education, sports, school construction, child-care centers,
polyclinics, [word indistinct], sports installations, ambitious housing
programs, if you are unable to support them with social development. There are
many areas of the economy where our country has progressed considerably, but
nevertheless, our country is still an underdeveloped country, much less a
consumer country. We need many things.

79.  In regard to food, we have a good level of nutrition, no less than 3,000
calories per capita a day, no less than 800 gm of protein with approximately 50
percent of this being animal protein. We continue to develop important food
plans, primarily to ensure and increase our population's food consumption.

80.  The textile industry has also grown. The amount of cloth per capita has
increased but we still do not have the level of textile, shoe, and cosmetic
consumption that Paris has. We also do not have a car for every family, nor do
we develop the philosophy or model of European capitalist societies.  We
believe it would be crazy for the world if, for example, China, with 1.1
billion inhabitants; and India, with 800 million inhabitants; proposed a model
of development similar to that of Belgium, Luxemburg, the United States, Japan,
etc. Then the world's gasoline and gas would not last even five years.

81.  These are truly crazy concepts, crazy development models which we
unfortunately see in many countries and which sometimes multiply the anxieties
of the people who want to have all those wonderful things that are nothing more
than an impossibility, a dream, and a craziness that has even poisoned the air
we breathe. Those are not our models, but illusions; wishes of all kinds are
created in the world and we will never have a society that is satisfied with
what it has.  There will always be complaints and reasons to complain: a
service will be inefficient, a product scarce. There will always be these kinds
of problems about which people will complain. People will always have something
to complain about.

82.  However, there will be no complaint in our country about beggars, children
abandoned in the street, or that dozens of children die every year in their
first year of life, or that life expectancy is 40, 45, or 50 years. No one will
complain in our country about malnutrition, illiteracy, children without
schooling, people going hungry. Tens of thousands, dozens.... [changes thought]
No one will complain of 20 to 30-percent unemployment and underemployment. No
one will complain of prostitution, drugs, gambling, discrimination against
women, discrimination against blacks. There will be many things that no one
will complain about but it will always be necessary and convenient to find
things to complain about, otherwise life would be terribly boring. Societies
would come to a standstill and the world would cease to be the beautiful....
[corrects himself] Life would cease to be the beautiful adventure that it is.

83.  [Reporter] President, considering the transformation of East Europe, what
kind of future is reserved for socialism? What kind of future is reserved for
Marxism and is the future of one indissolubly linked to the future of the

84.  [Castro] Socialism and Marxism? There has been no eternal society. Anyone
who has studied a little bit knows what existed a long time ago, including what
happened in Rome, in that Greece which was so democratic. The citizens would
meet to decide destinies in a plaza which certainly did not hold a lot of
people and where there were not even any microphones. We know that those
societies were divided into classes. A few citizens had all the rights. That is
why they had small parks. Many citizens had no rights while others were slaves.
We are very familiar with those societies. Feudal societies came later. They
were followed by absolute monarchies, the French Revolution, Voltaire, Diderot,
Jean-Jacques Rosseau, all those people. They represented the bourgeois liberal
philosophy. The bourgeois revolutions followed in several areas. The most
famous of these was the French Revolution. It progressed and regressed. After
it spread throughout Europe and because of several historic reasons-- the
coalition of reactionaries, Bonaparte's errors--this was followed by reaction,
counterrevolution, holy alliance, establishment of absolute monarchies, the
coalition of all those monarchies to trample any revolution any where. We are
familiar with this phenomenon. Anyone would have said that at that time, the
liberal and bourgeois ideas disappeared forever.  Nevertheless, those are the
ideas, with their capitalism, market economy, representative democracy, all
those things, that prevail in today's world. They are not the successful ideas
of today's world because today's world is not just France, England, the United
States, Japan, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, Finland. There are
12, 15, or 20 successful countries but there are more than 160 countries in the
world. The so-called bourgeois liberal philosophies have resolved absolutely
nothing in this hemisphere. For example, they have not resolved anything in
Africa or the Third World but those illusions are still being practiced.

85.  In 200 years, Latin America has not resolved any of the problems I have
mentioned here. If we discuss education, health, humane living conditions, the
statistics are horrible. The social debt is at its lowest point. It is
intolerable. They still have no reason to be grateful to bourgeois liberal
capitalist philosophy which functioned quite well in the old metropolises which
looted us for centuries and which attained yesterday's prosperity with
centuries of pain, suffering, and misery on the part of our peoples, who were
colonized during the time of Christopher Colombus, enslaved, and looted until
very recently.  They still loot us even more. We do not have very many reasons
to be grateful to them. Every year, 705,000 children die who could be saved. I
do not think they have any reason to be grateful to that philosophy.

86.  To give you an idea, we at least can say that in 30 years, we saved the
lives of 300,000 children just by reducing the infant mortality rate. They have
more reason to be grateful to socialism that capitalism. Every 10 years, 7
million or more of those children die.

87.  So when we idealize that philosophy, we can see that there is no doubt
that advancement, human progress has been accomplished. The French Revolution
was a great advancement over feudalism and over absolute monarchy. There has
been progress and setbacks.

88.  I think that the same can be said about socialism. It is the new
philosophy. It is what has to replace the egoism and anarchy of capitalism.
Capitalism is a kind of savage society. It is a society in which the
fundamental principle is everyone for himself, the strongest one prevails, the
unhappiest one [word indistinct], the one who has less talent, energy,
strength, or less relations with others....  [changes thought] That is
capitalism. It is inhumane even though it is better than feudalism. For my
part, I detest it the more I know about it. The more I think about it, the more
it repulses me. I do not think that it can be man's ideal.

89.  Even though this may be a difficult time, a delicate time for progressive
revolutionary ideas, and socialist ideas, socialism will be the society of the
future and perhaps with 80 [corrects himself] 50, 80, or 100 years, these are
the ideas that will prevail in one way or another through one road or another
for humanity. These will be the ideas that man tends to accept, that will make
him more in solidarity with others, make him more humane, make him more of a
man, because the worst instincts of man are what largely prevails in capitalist
societies despite their veneer of civilization. That is what I think and I
think that socialism will be the society of the future and it will progress or
regress in certain countries but it will be the society of the future.