-DATE- 19900411 -YEAR- 1990 -DOCUMENT_TYPE- -AUTHOR- -HEADLINE- Part 2 of Castro Meeting With Evangelicals -PLACE- CARIBBEAN / Cuba -SOURCE- Havana Cuba Vision Network -REPORT_NBR- FBIS-LAT-90-072 -REPORT_DATE- 19900413 -HEADER- BRS Assigned Document Number: 000006473 Report Type: Daily Report AFS Number: FL1304010290 Report Number: FBIS-LAT-90-072 Report Date: 13 Apr 90 Report Series: Daily Report Start Page: 3 Report Division: CARIBBEAN End Page: 12 Report Subdivision: Cuba AG File Flag: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Language: Spanish Document Date: 11 Apr 90 Report Volume: Friday Vol VI No 072 Dissemination: City/Source of Document: Havana Cuba Vision Network Report Name: Latin America Headline: Part 2 of Castro Meeting With Evangelicals Source Line: FL1304010290 Havana Cuba Vision Network in Spanish 0100 GMT 11 Apr 90 Subslug: [Second of two installments on President Fidel Castro's meeting with representatives of evangelical groups and the Jewish community in Havana on 2 April--recorded] -TEXT- FULL TEXT OF ARTICLE: 1. [Second of two installments on President Fidel Castro's meeting with representatives of evangelical groups and the Jewish community in Havana on 2 April--recorded] 2. [Excerpts] [passage omitted] [Castro] Regarding the meetings with the FEU [University Student Federation] Council that you mentioned, we discussed many of those thoughts. We discussed the topic of (?Christianity) a lot there. This was one of the points, because there are many different topics about this kind of teaching. There is also the topic of economics. I was thinking about the little comrade. I asked the comrade: What kind of economics are they teaching you? I said that we should intensely study the economics of capitalism. We are an island that is surrounded by capitalism everywhere. [laughter] And you need to know it. It is vital for revolutionaries like us, who have to fight, to know this. I considered this to be one of those ambushes for those of us who do not know anything. Those in the north, south, and east (?did not know) a lot of things. The students do not know what a multinational company is, what a stock market is. They do not know what certain kinds of companies are, what forms they take; the policies they use to loot us, exploit us. We have to know about it to defend ourselves from many of their tactics and strategies. It is very useful. 3. It is very useful. [repeats himself] There is no simple knowledge. Many authors of economics of socialism right now are saying it does not work. Do you realize that? But you said something, about scholasticism; a little can be called dogma also. Sometimes, this has been [words indistinct] and sometimes I wondered: At times have we not turned Marxism into a religion? 4. [Unidentified speaker] That is the worst that could happen. [laughter] 5. [Castro] And I say it here in front of you all. I am not speaking pejoratively against religion. [laughter] But we have turned it--we could say this--into a belief. To some degree, it has become a belief. So, that is why I say that it has taken on a certain religious nature in the sense that it has been made a belief. If it is made a belief, then it is a religion, not a political science. It is, thus, not a political doctrine. And so, he calls it scholasticism, a type of dogmatic teaching. Is that what you meant? What does that word mean? Can you explain it? [laughter] I am trying to interpret exactly. 6. But I was saying that much of what we discussed at that meeting was published. Things came out; some things I said about economics, the type of studies, and the things, the things [repeats himself] about teaching Marxism. This was seriously analyzed by the youth, and it is a very serious thing. Well, David [not further identified], if you wish I will say something. [applause] 7. It is not that I want to reduce the number of remarks, or hear the smallest amount, but it seems to me that some of the things that you could add--I assure you--I know about them already. I have a premonition about them although I have not heard them, but there must be anecdotes like that. [passage omitted] 8. I am very happy to have had this meeting with you today so soon after the visit to Brazil and my meeting with the believers--I think they were all Christians there, I think they were all Christians there. [repeats himself] There were representatives of churches such as yours and other churches. Representatives of the Catholic Church were there. Actually, the majority were Catholic because Catholicism is a very widespread religion in Brazil. It has also played an important role in the years of military governments, when there were no organized forces, when there was nothing. It played an extremely important role helping people; helping the people who were in need, suffering, going through all sorts of things. The Catholic Church created grass-roots communities. It is an important, a very important social force, very combative. 9. Now, the meeting was ecumenical. It was not only for Catholics; other churches were represented there. The various representatives spoke there. Those people had a great impact on me. They made a tremendous impression on me. They have strength. It is seen in their enthusiasm, in their singing, in their slogans, in their tremendous combative spirit. What I saw there made a great impression on me. 10. I believe you are very right in your analysis of the way I expressed myself. Actually, I could not say I was forgetful; there was almost a kind of....[rephrases] I was comparing situations. I was referring basically, in that group, I was referring to the Catholics who were there and who were in the majority at that meeting. They were the ones who asked me the questions, in general everyone did; but that question responded to a concern, a question, from that majority of those who were there and who also posed to me the most difficult problems. That was one of the most difficult answers inasmuch as I had to recount a little history. 11. I was forced to explain the history of the problems we had had here at the start of the revolution. I was forced to be critical, which I do not want to be here. I answered that question with the greatest tact possible. I had also met with the Brazilian bishops, who are very committed to the poor in Brazil. This does not mean that all Catholic bishops have taken this position. You cannot talk about a majority or a minority, but there is a considerable group that is breaking new ground, really. There is also another group that has very conservative positions on this, that is very opposed to this kind of policy. I even saw they had to cross stormy waters to be able to maintain those positions. 12. There is also another issue: liberation theology is considered something subversive in the United States. In the famous Santa Fe documents--Santa Fe I and Santa Fe II--since Reagan's times it has been said that liberation theology had to be openly fought against because those were communist ideas and it was nothing more than an instrument of those ideas and, therefore, had to be openly opposed. It was portrayed as one of the great dangers, really, to imperialist domination in this hemisphere. So there are powerful interests that want to restrain, contain this movement which has enormous strength. It is strong in Brazil and in other countries. The movement does not act the same everywhere but this movement is also ecumenical. This movement of liberation theology is not only within the Catholic Church but also within the other churches. 13. This reminds me of the first time I had contact with church members. Well, the first time I attended an ecumenical meeting. Because of the ideas, the memories I have of my time when I attended a religious school are of a very great sectarian spirit. To even mention a meeting of Protestants, [words indistinct] Catholics, Jews was impossible. There was rather incessant preaching to us since we were in the first year in catechism, they were always trying to create in us--and I have talked about this publicly--prejudice, animosity, against the other religions, any other religion. 14. I think this must be related to the serious problems there are with some religions, not only with the Jewish religion. Here we have a representative of the Jews. I remember that almost all the education in religious matters that was promoted with the people--not only with us in school but with even the poor people-- everything related to the Holy Week, the myths of Holy Week; I remember--and I have talked about this--they talked to us about the Jews. We did not even know who the Jews were. They said they were the worst people in the world, that they had killed God. Since I reached the age of reason, we had to be quiet at home during Holy Week. [audience laughs] We had to be still; there was total mourning because God had died. 15. God died on Holy Friday, then came the resurrection and all those things. As I told Frei Betto in that book--I believe it is included in Frei Betto's book--I thought Jews were black birds that make a lot of noise and live in the countryside. So for me they were [words indistinct] Imagine this in the Middle Ages, and this type of belief inculcated in a fanatical way. This would explain many of the problems that have developed throughout history: pogroms, persecution of the Jews. But let me say that at the time I was in school, there was not a lot of difference between the Jews and the others, the other religions. Each was as worthy of hell as the other. [laughter] Hell was going to be full, really. There was no possible forgiveness. 16. At that time it was not [words indistinct] I really think we have made a lot of progress in a relatively short period of time. There is greater understanding. Here we have talked about the lack of understanding between Marxists and Christians. And it turns out that there has been a lack of understanding as serious as this or worse between one Christian and another, and another, and another. Especially, the education I received in religious matters was characterized by much sectarianism. This is the reality. 17. I began to see this in my visit to Chile in 1973. I am not going to relate the history of the problems we had. First, they were not fundamentally with the other denominations; we had these problems with the Catholic Church. I have explained the history, the social reasons. Many of the people who had the opportunity of becoming a Catholic did so through the religious teaching in private schools. Private schools were the schools of the people who had the most money. For that reason, I myself was able to go to one of those schools, La Salle, then the Colegio de Dolores, and Colegio Belen. There were many schools of this kind. They were for the middle class and up. 18. To tell you the truth, there was discrimination of another kind. Colegio La Salle, the brothers of La Salle, were more democratic and had some black students; but Colegio Belen, in spite of how rebellious the Jesuits traditionally are--they have often been involved in great political movements--did not accept black students. This was simply a manifestation of discrimination that also answered to the culture of that social class. 19. At the time of the revolution, in the rural areas--and I have said this many times--there was not a single Catholic Church. There were none, anywhere on the island. They were not in the poor neighborhoods. It was only in these circles where religious education was really or basically received. At the time of the revolution, I remember that many classmates of mine.... [rephases] Where are my classmates? There are a few somewhere, survivors, like Cosme Ordonez, a doctor in one of the polyclincs in Plaza, a prominent director of a clinic. I have the pleasure of knowing there are three or four. Somewhere around Las Tunas I ran into some who were in Colegio de Dolores, and so forth. However, there are very few. There were clashes with all of them at the beginning because of the revolutionary laws, because they were in those sectors--landowners, bankers, businessmen, owners of everything. They tried to use the church, that church, against the revolution. 20. Well, I have already explained how the first period passed, it was all quite traumatic. [Words indistinct] a revolution, extremism, radicalism, things typical of revolutions in their initial stages. That was traumatic. It created an unpleasant image. It created an unpleasant situation. 21. I have also told how a papal nuncio was precisely the one who helped to begin to overcome those problems. But as I also said, I think I explained it in Brazil, the manner in which we approached the problem had a great influence. We approached the problem very carefully, with a lot of wisdom. We did not want the revolution to take on in the eyes of the world an antireligious nature [words indistinct] revolutionary sense, because if that happened it would have helped imperialism, especially in Latin America at that time. 22. I was aware that the church, the one with which we had the major conflicts, was not strong among the poor in Cuba, among the simple people. It was strong in the sector that was in conflict with the revolution. However, in other places in Latin America it is obvious that the church [passage indistinct] we had seen it. I said everything that allows the revolution to be considered an enemy of religion is a benefit, a favor, a service that is being done to imperialism; and harms the cause of the liberation of the people in Latin America. This is a problem that has always concerned us. 23. And that is why we handled all those problems with tremendous tact, and we tried to avoid them, as I have publicly explained. Everyone knows what has happened with all revolutions, almost always, starting with the French Revolution. Some terrible conflicts occurred between the Revolution and the Catholic Church, which was the dominant one. In the famous estates general where there were nobles; the middle classes on the one hand; the common people as they were called; there was also the clergy. The clergy was divided. The nobility was also divided a little. However, when part of the clergy joined with the common people it gave them the majority. Part of the clergy joined the side of the revolution, another part opposed the revolution, and there was a tremendous class conflict with many people executed. 24. The Spanish Civil War--everyone remembers; many people were executed. This also happened in the Mexican Revolution and the Russian Revolution. So there has not been a single revolution in which the conflicts have not been bloody, with the exception of a profound revolution where this conflict that arose for the reasons I have explained was not bloody. Not one drop of blood was shed. What happened in all the other revolutionary processes did not happen in this case. We are going to call a revolution, what a revolution is: a total, radical, violent change in society. We reached a state of coexistence, so to speak. 25. We did not have these problems with the churches you all represent. There may have been cases, situations, as we know, but it never came to...[rephrases] it never was--I say it sincerely--we never had this attitude, in spite of private or personal positions of people. This idea of conflict with the churches that you all represent is not present in my recollection of history. This is the reality. It was completely the opposite, as has been said here. 26. And it happened, well, we cannot be exempt from blame. We do not claim to be. If one analyzes it coldly, it could be said that we are somewhat to blame for this, for the development [words indistinct] situation that these problems had not been resolved before. The thing is that we were a little one-sided. We subordinated a little what we had to do and what we should have done to relations we had had with one church. And this became a major concern because of the way that church was organized, because of its nature as an international organization with a rather rigorous discipline. It turned into an international conflict for the revolution. We had the imperialists as the main enemy there. 27. Perhaps we exaggerated but we paid a lot of attention to the idea that it was incompatible, it would seem incompatible, to be a party member and have religious beliefs. We were mainly thinking of the believers of that church. 28. We said, well, many of them left; there is a question of essential faithfulness towards the country, towards the revolution. We had to choose between one thing and another. A situation of distrust developed. This was not a matter of principle, and we had no reason to introduce it. However it was a practical reason in which we said.... [changes thought] Remember how that struggle was; there were 300 counterrevolutionary organizations in the country. Remember all the problems--the Bay of Pigs, the October crisis, whether we would survive or not-- those problems took up the main ideas, and really that situation led to a state of coexistence. We reached a state of coexistence in many areas. The conditions were not created; we were not able to handle an analysis of this situation, to provide a solution for this problem, at a given time. 29. This is why I tell you that in 1971 or 1972; when did I visit there, 1971?--in Chile I ran into the first group that included pastors and priests. It was a greatly varied group. There were Catholics among them. This is what most caught my attention. We had that first meeting and exchange of views in Chile. A book was published containing the discussion we held. 30. [Unidentified speaker] [Passage indistinct]. 31. [Castro] Later in Jamaica, all the talks [words indistinct] were published. I think this was a very positive thing we did. We adopted a different attitude. We always had the hope that this could have had an effect and would also be our message for everyone, but also our message for that church with which we had had the initial conflicts. One thing happened about 10 years later, then the other thing. 32. This should not be considered the only reason. This should not be considered the only reason. [repeats himself] This had a decisive influence. Later I felt envious when I saw in other revolutionary processes how there was a rapprochement. A very great rapprochement between Christians and revolutionaries took place in Nicaragua and in El Salvador. I think this has been a result of the evolution in thinking in this direction. I think that the existence of the Cuban revolution, the fact that it occurred, had a great influence on the development of this thinking about liberation theology in Latin America. In fact it arose several years after the triumph of the revolution. 33. I said that this is not the only factor. We were the first, the first country where the revolution occurred. There was nothing similar to what we know today as a trend in religious feeling in Latin America. There was also outside influence regarding our situation in the country. There was the influence not so much from outside, but the influence of the traditions of the revolutionary movement; from the Russian Revolution, from the struggles of the Marxists in the last century, the great and close relationship there was in feudalism, and later when capitalism developed, with the dominant church. In this sense the church imitates the existing regime. 34. We all are aware of history. I do not have to repeat it. We know what happened in the feudal age. We also know what happened in the beginning, in the most ancient times; then what happened in the feudal age; then what happened in the capitalist age. This association arose with the prevailing social system, which was a class system; with social injustice. That is the origin; every revolutionary, socialist movement appears from that struggle. It acquires quite a strong antireligious slant. It acquired it. This is a true fact. 35. Antireligious ideas developed a lot even on the theoretical level. That famous phrase--I do not remember if it was Marx or Lenin--in the ``Communist Manifesto,'' about the opium of the people, that phrase gained strength. It almost became a principle. This was because of a historical situation, as I explained in Frei Betto's book. We must say that these two factors joined together: the historical tradition and the practical experiences we had here. One thing was compounded by the other. 36. As if we in practice were to discover the same thing that the history of the last century, the history of the revolutionary movement, tells us. To tell you the truth I should say these factors were present and [word indistinct] have had an influence. When did we begin to discover this? We began to discover it precisely with the beginning of the Cuban revolution, based on this movement that arose in Latin America about a commitment to the poor. Another image, another facet, began to arise. 37. We began to discover other realities. Then we began to talk about alliances between Marxists and Christians. We have been talking about this since Chile. I think that I was the first socialist political leader to talk about this. That is how it was. It is not a personal merit but a historical coincidence. Since the revolution arose and this movement arose in Latin America, we looked on it with a great deal of sympathy and said this had a tremendous revolutionary potential. This really can make social changes possible. This can make it possible to liberate the Latin American peoples from imperialist domination, from exploitation of man. This can bring justice. This was brought up in 1971 and we are in 1990. This was 19 years ago. 38. The same idea continued to be brought up. As I said, the idea of alliance was put into practice in Nicaragua and other places. When I met Frei Betto... [changes thought] I met Frei Betto in Nicaragua and I explained to him the problems we have here. Of course, he is Catholic. I explained to him the problems we have. I also met with other leaders. I met Lula in 1980 in Managua, at the first anniversary of the Sandinist victory. Frei Betto had the idea of doing an interview to discuss these problems. He knew and had read the previous dialogues I had had with a group of Christians, an ecumenical group. There were also Catholics at that meeting with Christians. 39. He insisted on this idea and had the interview; I agreed to grant the interview to talk to him about all these problems. Now I should say that this was the first case in which a leader of a socialist country discussed the problem of religion with a different concept, with different ideas, with the idea of unity, with the idea of an alliance between Christians and Marxists. I explained the reasons extensively. 40. I want you to know that that book had a great influence on many events. It had great political influence on the subsequent aproach to these problems. This book has been translated, even into Chinese. It has been translated into Persian, into all languages. I have met with Moslems visiting here who have talked about my book. They have read it. They almost know it by heart. These are Moslem revolutionary people, such as the Iranians who overthrew the Shah, very radical. I have met these people, and they have read the book. They have received these ideas with great approval, great satisfaction, because this can be applied to all religious beliefs; whether Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, or atheist. Atheism has also become--can I say it?--a religion. Do you see? [laughter] A religion of not believing. 41. I say that this book that was done with Frei Betto [words indistinct] a totally new approach to the problem, which had never been done. He even asked me about the famous phrase, and I said, well, it could be poison or a wonderful medicine, depending on what meaning is given to this feeling. If religious feeling is put in opposition to social change, then it does become an opium, but if it is joined to the struggle for social change then it is a wonderful medicine. I tried to explain what, in my opinion, were the historical origins for arriving at that situation. I would say that based on these dialogues with Christians I have had since 1971 and the interview with Frei Betto, there has been a new approach. A totally new approach appeared almost 20 years ago. 42. Well, with the problems we had had, this was useless. Our message really was useless. I say it with a feeling of frustration. I am not referring to you. For a long time you had a different attitude toward the revolution. Many Catholics also did, but we followed this policy because we were consistent in practice also with the ideas we have presented. 43. That entailed a historic decision. This is the reality. This is the position. In the meeting with the Christians there I said: I will not hesitate to tell the truth. Because they asked for the answer to a really very difficult question when they simply asked why believers cannot be party members. It is a very difficult question to answer simply because this is discrimination. Yes. How can it be explained to those people, fervent revolutionaries? How can it be explained? 44. This is why the first thing I said regarding this question was: If they were you, they would have become members of the party a long time ago. At that time my subconscious was responding to the entire drama of the problem we had had. That is what I told them. Really, I think there are people worthy of being in the best party. [Words indistinct] that response but it is not that I made that up. If I have been proposing the idea of the alliance between Christians and Marxists, the only thing consistent with this is that we are truly united, that we are true allies. We are working for the same cause. [passage omitted] 45. I am already aware that this problem must be solved. I have told several comrades. I told [Communist Party of Cuba, PCC, Secretary Carlos] Aldana, I have told [PCC Politburo member Esteban] Lazo, who is with me. I have said, look at this problem, a local thing of ours. Because of a partial problem that we have had at a given time, there have been no right circumstances to facilitate a solution for us. We are left with this problem hanging over us. It is a problem of principle because it is a problem [words indistinct] has to be solved and this is the historic turning point. It is the best time because it is a difficult time; it is a time of great risk, a time in which things are collapsing over there and the imperialists are becoming bolder. They are becoming more arrogant than ever, more scornful than ever. They think they can squash us like a cockroach. This is a difficult moment, and why do we not define this? Why do we not define it? 46. Of course, it is not that we have not been thinking about this, because this idea is in the document that was published. But I say, will we have to wait for the congress to present it there or do we have to start bringing it up as of now? In fact, I brought it up there but I expanded more on it during the speech. I said that this problem must be solved. 47. Naturally, I did not want--the time did not seem right at the moment --to go into depth on this the way I am doing with you. Perhaps we must go into depth on this problem later so that everyone will assume their responsibilities. Because I say: I ask myself: Why do the rest of the believers who have been loyal to the country, who have defended the revolution enthusiastically and sincerely, have to pay the consequences of this problem? [applause] This is one of the questions I ask myself. However, I ask another one. Why do so many very good Catholic followers--because there are those who are hardworking, exemplary--also have to pay the consequences of a certain line? Because we know how each of the institutions is. We know how it is. I do not want to be critical. I do not really want this to become a reason for criticism, to hurt other people here or elsewhere in the world, but it is clear. It is clear. Why do the believers who are good, who are revolutionaries, who are militia members, [words indistinct] for the country, also have to suffer the consequences of this situation? 48. I say we must have another approach to this issue. We must state the truth and state it clearly, and take another approach. Of course, no one is forced to join the party. It is entirely voluntary. The party also demands that certain requirements be met for a revolutionary to join. That is something else. But exclusion from the party is discrimination. I believe that it is a matter of principle that we should solve, because it is the party, the party is the one that has to guarantee the unity of all the people. We are not living in paradise. We are living in a world full of all kinds of problems, full of risks, full of threats. We, a small country threatened by a superpower, need unity. If we have the idea that we should have a party, consequently, it should be a party for all, of rights for all. [applause] 49. We must also be consistent with all things that we have approved in our Constitution. Our Constitution rejects any kind of discrimination--it is clear--whether based on skin color, sex, or belief. What meaning does it have then to try to conduct a social project? We have been clear. Ours has been the fairest society that can be imagined, the most humane that can be imagined, which is what unites us. What sense does this discrimination against believers have? 50. I think that within this process of rectification, one of the important things we have to deal with is that. And not only because one person [words indistinct] the party [words indistint] or not or a specific role, but because there are many believers who are not members of a church, of a given church, but who have their own beliefs. They are animists. We even had here the spiritual leader of the Yoruba people. How many beliefs do people have? Let us take those who go to the processions for Saint Lazarus. They go to the Saint Lazarus processions. They have their beliefs. Let us take those who were not members of any specific church, but that somebody, that their relatives inculcated a certain belief in them or they did it on their own. Well, that person must feel bad. He must feel bad in a situation in which believers are discriminated against. [Words indistinct] and looked upon with a certain contempt and forced to make a double effort [words indistinct] revolution [applause]. 51. They are discriminated against in their homeland, in their country, and in their revolution. And they defend their the homeland [words indistinct] they are willing to surrender their lives. They defend the revolution. It is a situation that cannot continue. The issue is that what should divide us is not whether one is a believer or not. What should divide us [corrects himself] what we should ask ourselves is whether we are revolutionaries or not. [applause] 52. [Words indistinct] it is really absurd, senseless, and foolish, because the other thing [whether one is a revolutionary or not] is what can really separate one Cuban from another--the cause, what I just said before, and not beliefs. If someone says: I do not believe in anything; if someone is an atheist, and yet is a revolutionary, why should we make a distinction between atheists or nonbelievers and believers? There is no reason for that to become an obstacle. On the contrary, it becomes something that is absolutely discriminatory when it exists. 53. So that is the reason. [Words indistinct] problems that there may be. I was saying to people: After all, religion and churches are part of the culture of a people. We have repaired churches. [Words indistinct] a city without temples [words indistinct]. In other words, their ways not only [passage indistinct] I believe that in culture. [Words indistinct] because at that moment we have a [words indistinct]. 54. Well, all that is neither reasonable nor rational. But, but [repeats himself] [word indistinct] that comes out of that situation and of that atmosphere of mistrust that was created for a given reason and then became a general standard that contributed to the lack of understanding. This type of division should not exist because it contradicts what we have been preaching for a very long time. I view society from a different perspective. I imagine a society that is totally free from any kind of discrimination. I imagine a united country because we have to be united. If we are not united, they will swallow us. But we will be even more united. As the comrade from Colon said: They we will act the same with or without changes, but it is better with changes. [applause] 55. We must be truly united. We must be truly united [repeats himself]. That other thing [division] is foolish. Of course, I would say that you have [word indistinct] twice as much [words indistinct] like those who greeted me in Brazil have. Despite that and although I cannot tell you: Listen, you are party members as of now, although I must admit that there is a situation [words indistinct] give us support and understanding. You know that we have to overcome certain problems, but you do not even demand that we solve those problems. You support us. And I am sure that your attitude not only increases unity but also the solidarity among all those progressive, revolutionary forces that are concerned about social changes and justice. You contribute to increasing that solidarity and satisfaction. I am sure that those over there [words indistinct] that this problem is going to be solved here. [Passage indistinct]. Thus, [words indistinct] but you will feel that you have made your contribution, because every little bit helps. 56. [Words indistinct] that meeting [words indistinct] here, it will surely have to be done tactfully [words indistinct] important turning point, because it coincided with this whole local situation, with this collapse. They [not further identified] were also very encouraged by the visit to Brazil. After all, they are revolutionaries. And at present, all revolutionaries have been harshly attacked all over the world. And one wonders what is going to happen with socialism. One wonders about the destiny of socialism [word indistinct]. And obviously, there is no future without socialism. It is not difficult to prove that. There is no future without socialism. If we are going to be left with this garbage capitalism [words indistinct] years, it would be better--well--that the Apocalypse comes before that happens. [crowd laughs] You must know more about the Apocalypse than I do. 57. Let us take the example of Latin America. It is incredible when one examines data coming from the various Latin American countries. It is truly amazing. Capitalism functions in those countries and it functions in the way that you know it functions. It works in the same way that it works in the United States, where there are millions of homeless people, thousands of homeless kids without parents or anything. Those phenomena exist there. We see these scenes combined with extreme levels of poverty. We see those scenes everywhere. Then there is mendicancy, the drug problem, prostitution, and all other vices. Those vices are found among even the wealthiest people. And if this is the case with the capitalist world powers--and their mechanisms really work there because they support each other; in other words, the dollar supports the yen, the German mark supports the Italian lira, the British pound, etc. They support each other every time they have a problem, a deficit, or something. No one, however, supports Latin American currencies. These currencies inflate like a balloon and then explode. These countries have reached amazing inflation rates. In one year, inflation went up to 1,500 [not further specified] in Brazil. In Argentina it went up to 3,000 and something in one year. Who knows what it is like in Peru. 58. Latin American countries do not really have any plans. One day they invent one thing and the next they invent something else. They simply cannot solve their problems. No strong currency supports them when inflation begins to rise in these countries. Money goes out of those countries through all channels because people who hold bank accounts in local currencies know that next month that money will be worth half of what it is worth now. Thus, they run to their banks, get their money, and take it to a country with a strong currency. What are those governments going to ask from a man who has 10,000; 50,000; 1,000, or whatever? [currency not specified] 59. And if one of those governments raises its interest rates too high, to prevent people from taking their money out of the country, then nobody invests in industries. People then begin investing in speculative businesses to make more money based on [words indistinct]. It is a complete disaster for the economy. Capitalism does not solve the problems of any Third World country unless it is a country to which resources are granted as a gift, as is the case of some Asian countries. Multinationals were sent to countries with very repressive regimes, for example. 60. The so-called neoliberal measures partiallt worked in Chile. They resulted in positive economic rates. This grew much [words indistinct] nobody. Well, last year the Inter-American Development Bank sent money to Chile, with approximately 12 million inhabitants, instead of sending it to Brazil, that has 140 million inhabitants and has much greater need of development works than Chile. [Words indistinct]. They have a ferocious [words indistinct]. Workers cannot protest. Workers cannot demand improvements, and therefore the situation is of course.... [changes thought] How much do those workers earn? I think I have seen some information on that in the newspapers. I think they earn about $60 dollars [not further specified]. At present, 40 percent of the population owns 12 percent of the [word indistinct]. The masses suffer greatly. They do not have enough money to do anything. In other words, those capitalist theories have to be applied by a very repressive regime to be successful. Those regimes have to receive privileged aid and must also starve their people to death. 61. One can read about those things. But there is no future there. One can breathe democracy all through Latin America, but Latin America lacks firm economic foundations. Nobody knows where these countries are heading in view of their current situation. And one is amazed after one examines those countries' social statistics. They have an average infant mortality of 65 percent over 1,000. [not further specified] Some have more, some have less, but that is the average. Their infant-mortality rate of children between zero and five years of age is 85 percent. That rate is six times more than the Cuban infant-mortality rate gentlemen. Amazing! 62. And then there is the problem of education. We have almost 300,000 teachers. When I talked to them [the Brazilians] about our education level and indexes I told them: It is a better education than the one offered in the United States. We have less illiterate people, of both the functional and the nonfunctional kind. 63. There is also the situation of women in Cuba. I told them that women represent almost 58 percent of our technical force; around 50 something. I mean, 61 or 62 percent of the population attending our preuniversity schools are women, and they represent 57 percent of our university population. In other words, there is an increasing participation of women in the country's technical field. 64. I also spoke to them about our day-care centers, our semiboarding schools, our scholarship schools, and especially about our special-education schools. We have the capacity for 80,000 special students. They cannot even dream of that. The family-doctor program is something they cannot even dream about. We have a country free from beggars, prostitution, and drugs. Well, I am not speaking in absolute terms, but what I am saying is that those phenomena are manifested to a minimum here in Cuba. We have amazing health levels. Those countries cannot even dream of these things. The Brazilian intellectuals and Christians were amazed at this, because these things are their day-to-day struggle. 65. I talked to the mayor of Sao Paulo, the most industrialized city in Latin America, and she told me: We have 300,000 kids who cannot go to school. She said 300,000 children. And we are talking about the most industrialized and wealthiest country in Latin America. And she told me: We have areas of 3 million inhabitants without a single hospital. 66. Thus, when one compares all those rates, for example unemployment.... [changes thought] obviously we have very large personnel rosters. But they also have much larger personnel rosters there! [crowd laughs] The only difference is that they fix those roster problems by laying off all kinds of people. And that is it. We, we go slowly. If we have too many people working in a hospital, we wait until we expand the hospital and keep them on our rosters. We do not dismiss anybody. We do not even send people home while still paying them their salary because a man who feels useless, a man who feels that his work is good for nothing; feels humiliated, bitter, and unfortunate. Thus, we prefer to keep people on our inflated personnel rosters until we can tell them: [words indistinct]. It would probably be more useful for us to dismiss those workers and continue to pay them their salaries, but we would be humiliating them. Thus, we must know how to do things to avoid humiliating people and to avoid leaving people unprotected. 67. Many of those countries lack social security services. They have nothing. Cities grow in a totally disorderly manner. People go and build houses here and there and then [words indistinct] full of those things, because they then start improving their situations. They start off building cardboard houses, but as soon as they get a chance, they replace the cardboard with bricks. Cities grow in the midst of absolute disorder. Sao Paulo has approximately 17 million inhabitants. You should see that city. It is absolute madness. You can imagine the kind of social and human problems that a city with 17 million people has. Well, try to imagine what kind of problems it will have with 30 million people. People spend most of their time going from one place to the other. They spend hours moving from one place to the other. There is no order and there cannot be. There is no way to have proper potable-water systems, power system, and hospital services in a city that grows at that pace and in such a disorderly manner. The streets [five-second break in reception] the New York skyscrapers [seven-second break in reception]. 68. Gentlemen, they [not further identified] have brought us a social model that is unsustainable. If that model were applied in China, in India, well, but the model brought by those capitalist, developed countries is being applied in Latin America. And these countries are a major disaster. And they are increasingly disastrous. There is too much alienation. There are thousands of homeless kids. I believe that there are approximately 30 million homeless kids. I almost refused to accept the figures they gave me in Brazil. They have estimated that they have 20 something million homeless kids. You can imagine the kind of life those kids have. There are millions of kids going around homeless in those Latin American cities. What kind of future can they have? 69. Capitalism will never solve any of those problems. I said: Capitalism will not solve your problems. And I said that very carefully to avoid being accused of subversion. [crowd laughs] I gave them some data. But there is no distribution of wealth there. No one is concerned about solving those problems. People are incredibly unprotected there, and even in highly developed cities and countries. And I saw those big, developed cities. I gave them the example of what [words indistinct] two years. They have gained more in one year than in three centuries. From the net value of their gains, we would have to substract, however, [seven-second break in reception]. 70. ...Of how they are fighting inflation, because inflation has become a monster in those countries. And they cannot do anything with their free-price and market economy because of their inflation rates. Thus, norms, regulated distribution is 10 times more preferable, because if, when all is said and done, a country needs 10,000 teachers [two-second break in reception] when inflation appears, because each teacher here has more or less his or her norm. 71. Obviously, we always have to seek incentives for salaries. For example, we are always looking for ways to collect money from nonessential areas. We do not dare collect money from our milk production or from any of our staple items. We collect money from rum and tobacco production and from other luxury items. You understand this concept better than anyone else--you have to understand this better than anyone else--because you know how superfluous, senseless, and inhuman those luxury items are. Capitalism does not solve the problems of the Third World. They have to implement a programmed economy. They have to invest every single penny in a strictly honest manner and in the right areas, because they will always have one-fifth of what they need to invest and it is not possible to invest that one-fifth in whatever they want. They have to create a rigorous investment program to guarantee development and solve the various problems. 72. This cannot be done in capitalism. I tell them [not specified] all the time, we have solved in 30 years what you have not solved in 300. We experienced some delays because of the phenomena I have explained. We stopped building child-care centers. Now the country is doing more with fewer resources. I am waiting for the day in which we can say we have 85,000 slots available for special education schools, when all of them are available. For Latin America this is a dream for the year 3000. [crowd laughs] This is regarding special education schools. Not to mention child-care centers, not to mention the some 1 million students--between the ones who who stay all day and the ones who stay part of the day--for each 10 million people. This makes it so easy for the student, for the family, the mother, the woman to join society. 73. When I mention our social progress I say the program for women is no longer a project, it is an objective reality. Women have training, a certain degree of education. They are essential. They are taking the lead in many things because of their own merits. It is not a matter of good wishes, of the noble program of giving opportunities to women [words indistinct]. It is unavoidable that it has it [crowd laughs]. It has it even if it does not want it. [Passage indistinct]. I mentioned a few of these things to the intellectuals, to the Christians and they were amazed. This causes amazement there. Do you know what the role of women would be if there were no child-care centers, schools, scholarships, and they have to work? [Words indistinct] because life imposes it on them. Many of them are single women. 74. The situation causes pain, causes sadness. One can see very clearly that that has no solution. I am not talking about Lima, I have not been in Lima. It is said that in the outskirts of Lima there are some 4 or 5 million people who do not have a roof over their heads. That situation is repeated in everything in even the richest countries such as Venezuela, which has who knows how many billions of [words indistict] of oil. The city is surrounded by.... [changes thought] So it happens in even the richest countries. 75. A country that is as rich as Argentina and [words indistinct] at this time. I was saying that we are closely following the measures they take regarding inflation. It is terrible. Whenever there is no inflation there is recession. 76. I believe they are making in Brazil one of the most daring efforts to straighten the situation. 77. The first thing I do every day is read all the news reports because I am curious to see how they can find [words indistinct] solutions to those problems under those conditions. It is difficult, it is difficult [repeats himself] because there was strong opposition in the congress. I believe 10,000 amendments to the program have already been proposed. If one had nothing to do, it would be something to observe what was happening as if it were a movie, and see country by country how (?capitalist countries) really have no future. 78. For all progressive and revolutionary people this time is a bitter time, a hard and terrible time. They see capitalism and imperialism, and they really do not see a thing. This is one of the questions that is created. Many people are starting to respond to the situation. 79. I was saying, I did not give you my view that this political discrimination leads to all the rest of discrimination. This is where the problem lies. If he was going to join the party and it was said that he was a believer.... [changes thought] All other discriminations are present. If we put an end to this discrimination we would put an end to all the rest and [words indistinct] based on confidence and principles. [Words indistinct] we are united because we are revolutionaries. This would be based on revolutionary unity among all Cuban revolutionaries, without any type of discrimination. All would be possible. What is not possible on this basis of confidence and unity. This would be one of the best principles we could have for the defense of the country, the defense of the revolution, and the struggle for justice. 80. Precisely, I believe the basis from which I always parted, and I said it at the beginning of the revolution.... [changes thought] Since I had the opportunity of studying in a religious school I was able to familiarize myself with Christian teaching. I am not a sectarian but [words indistinct] during that period I was able to see many things. I acquired political consciousness and saw very clearly that socialism and communism are the ideals of a Christian who strictly abides by Christian thought. [applause] 81. Of course, an trend opposite to this [words indistinct] would be in contradiction to the convictions. If a man is very rich, very rich, very rich [repeat himself] he should be asked to hand over his money. [Words indistinct from a member of the audience]. He should be asked to hand over his money to help the rest. He has no right to be rich next to a poor man. There is less right to exploit the poor man, and there is no right for one to swim in a sea of abundance. You cannot imagine in what abundance he swims. 82. So, for a Christian there can be a true convergence of goals--you have to look for it--with a sincere socialist, a Marxist, a socialist, a communist, even this is utopian. Communists existed before Marxism. Communists existed before Leninism. Many people thought of a single society a long time ago. They were called utopians. I began being utopian. I had read nothing from Marx, or Engels, or Lenin when I started to see--while studying political economy when I was a sophomore in university--that capitalism was a disaster. I arrived at that conclusion early on when I saw the anarchy in production, overproduction, unemployment. There were a number of basic things. I started to think how society needed to be organized so it would function in a just and rational way. Not only just, but also rational. Capitalism is a terrible waste of energy and resources. There is a terrible waste of economic resources because 500 do the same thing and then three or four are left. The others go elsewhere with the money. No. 83. It is a system that developed and allowed the development of these few societies. They are a few that live in the consumption society. It does not solve the problems in Third World countries. It will never solve the problems of Latin America. One can categorically say this. 84. I believe that you have had to go through a difficult period during these 30 years--this has to be admitted-- with all those social situations, [words indistinct] economic, and with revolutionaries, with the enemy. 85. [First unidentified speaker] We have a lot of happiness, a lot of joy at an extraordinary time [words indistinct]. 86. [Second unidentified speaker] It has compensated. 87. [Castro] Yes, but it is a reality that you have been discriminated against. That political discrimination is expressed in all the other things. When we eliminate that.... [changes thought] we are going to eliminate it as soon as possible. [applause] 88. This is the prevailing sentiment in the party's leadership. Nobody disagrees with it. As you say, we have to do some work in persuasion with everyone. I have been doing this. [crowd laughs] I have been doing my job. I believe that this is why your own words, all that helps. One has to say it because we have to create a new awareness about this. One has to work against prejudices and things. Do not think that is always as easy. I see it in the economic and political area. 89. Sometimes ideas from abroad are introduced and it is not easy. There are people who are taken over by those ideas. Only time and life leads them to acknowledge how many mistakes were included in many of those ideas that came from abroad. Sometimes economic ideas--because they studied them in all those books, do not think that they only studied religious matters--economic ideas are pretty deeply rooted in many people. 90. It is not a matter that it is said.... [changes thought] The party is disciplined. The truth is that the party is disciplined and has the ability to understand. It will understand. It will understand. [repeats himself] It can be said that 100 percent will understand; there may be one who [words indistinct] things from books, texts from from abroad [crowd laughs] that may have more difficulty. I am convinced, I have no doubt that the members of the party, as a rule, will understand. We are many. Because in the party.... [changes thought] As I say, we have a country of communists. You can see it in all those people who are part of the contingents, the hundreds of thousands who go to fulfill internationalist missions. People do a lot of things. 91. One has to see that among people who do bad things there are many people doing excellent things. Those people are communists. They are (?not) in the party. Not all communists are in the party. However, those people are going to understand. 92. I tell you that I have had a very good impression of this meeting. From the contact that I have had with you I feel, especially today--I began the conversation with the doctor who is taking care of the children there--as I listened to you, I see how much nobleness, how much kindness there is in your soul; how much patriotism, how much sense of justice, wishes for justice, yearning for justice. Therefore, our party gains a lot. I agree with what one of the comrades says. That there should not be [word indistinct], that nobody should hide an inner feeling. It must be very unpleasant to have a convinction, one of these feelings which does not harm anyone and can do good to many that suddenly had to hidden as if it were a sin because they are going to our hell. [crowd laughs and applauds] 93. It is a hell created by prejudice; it is a hell created by a lack of understanding. [Words indistinct]. You can be sure that it (?prevents) many from being happy because in the middle of [words indistinct] worries and prejudice.... [changes thought] One has the girlfriend as it happened to [Castro chuckles and audience laughs] the comrade here and the other one has the mother, the other one has an uncle, or the other one has the grandmother. 94. I remember when I arrived in Havana during the first days of the revolution, the first weeks; I went to see the old woman--I called my mother the old woman--and my mother's mother, my grandmother. I arrived in a building where they stayed in an apartment, the two were lying down. [Passage indistinct]. They had a number of saints and things, medals, millions of things. I saw the religious fervor they had; with what fervor, with what enthusiasm, with what hope they saw on all that. Well, this was even more so after the war. Who knows how many vows they made during the war. [crowd laughs] The miracle you talked about happened. They saw us alive there. Imagine. What harm could it do. I was always very respectful of her and her believes. All those things help one understand. 95. How many have a grandmother? This is really going to create a conflict, not only among revolutionaries, but among patriots, noble people, those who want justice, in the heart of families, personal, and social relations--all kinds of conflicts. You can be sure that all of us now with a more clear awareness of all this situation--that this problem we have experienced which should have been solved before, I think we are going to solve it in the best of times. And as a result of an entire process. It is going to be much more mature. 96. This could have been decided by a few leaders through an analysis, a committee analyzing things, a commission. However, life has basically been the one creating the conditions to finding a truly serious and profound solution. When you compare yourselves with the first Christians.... [changes thought] At least, according to what I know about the first Christians, you know; Christians were persecuted, were thrown to the lions, when Christians were treated as communists are treated now. This is how they want to treat communists even in those countries that have made a lot of changes, and over there, in the world. 97. I made the comparison. During the beginning of the revolutionary movement you were treated harshly, but Christians have been treated worse for centuries, for centuries. [repeats himself] You need to compare the 600 years the first Christians experienced with your 30 years. [crowd laughs and applauds] 98. In the end you are going to feel happy. You are going to say: Because we played the role of martyrs in something, [crowd laughs] we were firm, our faith was not weakened. You are going to be able to say: Neither our Christian faith nor our patriotic faith was weakened. [applause] It is more extraordinary: in this crossfire coming from all directions, your revolutionary faith was not weakened. [applause] Faith in socialism was not weakened. It grew. Well now it is going to grow more. [applause] [Words indistinct] many times, this has to be fixed, this has to change. Someone had to hear your prayers. [crowd laughs and applauds] They were heard in heaven and on earth. [standing ovation] [passage omitted] -END-