-DATE- 19900719 -YEAR- 1990 -DOCUMENT_TYPE- -AUTHOR- -HEADLINE- `Highlights' of 7th ANPP Assembly -PLACE- CARIBBEAN / Cuba -SOURCE- Havana Cubavision Network -REPORT_NBR- FBIS-LAT-90-144 -REPORT_DATE- 19900726 -HEADER- BRS Assigned Document Number: 000013023 Report Type: Daily Report AFS Number: FL2007171590 Report Number: FBIS-LAT-90-144 Report Date: 26 Jul 90 Report Series: Daily Report Start Page: 8 Report Division: CARIBBEAN End Page: 11 Report Subdivision: Cuba AG File Flag: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Language: Spanish Document Date: 19 Jul 90 Report Volume: Thursday Vol VI No 144 Dissemination: City/Source of Document: Havana Cubavision Network Report Name: Latin America Headline: `Highlights' of 7th ANPP Assembly Subheadline: Part 2 Source Line: FL2007171590 Havana Cubavision Network in Spanish 0100 GMT 19 Jul 90 Subslug: [Second part in a series of three on ``highlights'' of the Seventh Session of the Third National Assembly of the People's Government, ANPP, held at the Palace of Conventions in Havana from 11 to 13 July--recorded] -TEXT- FULL TEXT OF ARTICLE: 1. [Second part in a series of three on ``highlights'' of the Seventh Session of the Third National Assembly of the People's Government, ANPP, held at the Palace of Conventions in Havana from 11 to 13 July--recorded] 2. [Excerpts] [passage omitted] [Bartolo Dominguez] I agree in principle with competition for a position. In the long run this will allow for greater in-depth activity in the legal field and higher quality work in judges. However, I am concerned about the way in which the competition will take place. Are we in a position to demand requirements for all promotions and assignments? 3. [Castro] How much does a judge earn? 4. [Dominguez] Excuse me? 5. [Castro] How much does a judge earn? 6. [Dominguez] The basic wage is 365 pesos in the provinces. 7. [Castro] How much does an attorney earn in the collective attorney office? 8. [Dominguez] Currently there is a free-wage system. There is no ceiling on what an attorney can earn. 9. [Castro] How much can one earn? 10. [Dominguez] Excuse me? 11. [Castro] How much? 12. [Dominguez] Now the wage system is somewhat regulated. They can earn 1,000 pesos or more. Now there is some regulation, and even when the free-wage system is operating, there is a ceiling of 1,500 pesos. But in reality, the way the wage system is regulated, it is free; they can earn as much as 2,000. 13. [Castro] Well, who has to explain this? If that is the way the system works, I do not believe many people can justify it. 14. [ANPP President Juan Escalona] Excuse me, commander. Following the discussions.... 15. [Castro, interrupting] The old and famous little meetings. 16. [Escalona] A resolution was adopted to draw up a preliminary plan in some law offices in the country to free the system so attorneys could earn according to the result of their work. Two factors worked against this experience. The shortage of attorneys in collective law offices resulted in a high ratio of clients to attorneys, an excessive number of cases per attorney. This, in turn, resulted in a lower level of quality in the work of attorneys because the heavy load keeps them from spending enough time with clients. They could not visit the clients in prison. So when an attorney attempts to earn a lot of money by doing poor-quality work, the board of directors of collective law offices decided to maintain a ceiling of 1,500 pesos per attorney. This was the subject of a series of serious discussions held by the collective office. This problem was discussed passionately. 17. [Castro] So what is it that he is saying? That not a single voluntary judge is going to be found in the entire country. 18. [Escalona] Is Comrade Manresa in the audience? He is chairman of the board of.... 19. [Castro, interrupting] Chairman of what? 20. [Escalona] Chairman of the board of the collective office. 21. [Castro] Oh, well. 22. [Guillermo Manresa] Comrade Commander in Chief, Comrade Assembly President and Delegates: This problem is not simply an income issue. For everyone's peace of mind I can tell you that there are only two out of 562 attorneys who are in this pay system, out of 1,177 attorneys in the country. The difference between those who are in that pay system and the total number of attorneys is young attorneys doing their social service and who receive only 198 pesos a month. This means that not all attorneys receive that astronomical figure.... [changes thought] In other words, in relation to the total number of attorneys who are in the collective law offices, only 0.16 percent could have had--there are two cases in the country--with an average income of 1,000 pesos. 23. [Castro] What is the total number of attorneys in the collective offices? 24. [Manresa] Commander in Chief, 1,177 practicing attorneys. There are 83 attorneys in the position of director. The director of an office must be an attorney also. There is talk about pay without a ceiling. From the economic point of view the pay has no limits, but from the physical and intellectual point of view, and in view of the professional and human possibilities of the individual, there is a limit which we are applying. We have adopted measures regarding the directors. We have to say that an entire group of factors is being applied in the law offices. This is why I was saying that we must not look into the wage system alone. 25. There are a series of organizational measures. We have set up work teams in the offices, with five, six, or seven attorneys. Since there are many young ones who are new and just starting out in the profession, we set up teams that evaluate. Quality starts with the attorney himself, including the issue of professional ethics. Another thing we have tried to strengthen is performance of the profession based on reinforced ethics. In addition, when the issue of individual awareness, or ethics, fails, it is the team leader, the collective that exerts control over the work. It is under the control of the director whose responsibility, for all practical purposes, has been increased. This includes nonpayment for a case when a series of basic quality requirements for a trial have not been fulfilled. 26. Further, I would like to say something about the proportion of the matters dealt with in the attorneys office. Everyone thinks of the law office in terms of crime, of penal matters. We serve 175,000 citizens a year. Of these, 30 or 28 percent are penal matters. The rest are civil cases, such as divorce. 27. [Castro] How many are divorce cases? 28. [Manresa] About 35,000 to 37,000 per year. 29. [Castro] Holy cow! [laughter] Do you get paid for divorce cases? You do. 30. [Manresa] We have brought our services to isolated municipalities. We either set up offices there or the lawyer goes there two or three times a week. We have made it possible for more people to see a lawyer by having evening hours to make it easier for people not to miss work. We have also adopted other measures by handling documents for various matters instead of people's having to go to the registry to look for documents. To the extent that people have this service close by, this also makes it possible for those who, for example, had a parent die and who continued to live at the home. This new situation was not reported for generations. 31. The citizens have begun to see that the services to report such matters have been made easier and a better service is being rendered. This is in spite of the fact that we still do not have the legal quality we wish, but to the extent that people see the attorney can solve problems and make things easier, they will use that service. So, there are a number of factors. There are also new rules, new legislation. 32. [Castro] Such as this one. 33. [Menresa] Yes, all kinds of legislation, such as housing.... 34. [Castro, interrupting] Are you going to ask for more attorneys? Is that not so? Fewer? 35. [Manresa] We also have to talk about the appointed defenses under the responsibility of the organization. No attorney is appointed unless nominated by an office. The court asks that an office appoint an attorney as a social service. This situation must be resolved. About 15,000 cases are defended by appointed attorneys, and at any given moment they are not paid. This service is identified by many people as a free service. 36. The comrades who are closer to this matter, the Justice Ministry, the comrades of state organizations, believe we should find a solution to this. In our society no one is left unprotected. First of all, if we are talking about a embezzler, he has enough money to pay a modest fee after he is penalized, if he ends up being penalized. If not, he works in prison. In reality, about 1.5 million pesos in income is left uncollected. It is not a matter that the organization does not receive the money for these defense cases by appointment, but the country does not collect it either. We are talking about some 15,000 pesos per year. 37. [Castro] This is a good explanation. Now tell us if you think that Comrade Santiago is correct when he says that no one wants to be a judge. 38. [Menresa] It is my opinion the type and nature of an attorney's work is different from that of a judge. I am not saying it has more responsibility. 39. [Castro] But you are not saying whether or not we are going to have enough judges. 40. [Menresa] No, I believe that there are many attorneys.... [changes thought] Regardless of the income and based on personal issues, health, family.... [changes thought] Many are women. Many lawyers are women, who at one point in their lives are forced to .... 41. [Castro, interrupting] Are they forced to be judges or what? 42. [Menresa] They are restricted to practicing law because of the nature of the work. 43. [Castro] Correct. So it is possible that some women can be judges. 44. [Menresa] Instead of this being an obstacle, I believe that the fact the position is given by competition will dignify the profession more. A person will not be a judge just because he was elected. It will be because he competed for a position, and in addition, was elected. I think there is a series of measures that will continue to dignify the position of judge. It seems to me that there are always people who aspire to be a judge, or a prosecutor. 45. [Escalona] Commander, I am going to request that Comrade Raul Amaro, who is president of the Supreme People's Tribunal and chief of all of this country's judges [words indistinct]. 46. [Castro] Who much does the chief of the Supreme Tribunal earn? It is below 40 percent of one of those outstanding attorneys. 47. [Amaro] Yes, sir. 48. [Castro] And you would not resign from your post of president of the Supreme Tribunal to go and work in a collective law office. 49. [Amaro] No. The assembly would have to remove me. 50. [Castro] The assembly would have to remove you. All right, we will keep it in mind to help you, Amaro. [laughter] 51. [Amaro] Thanks for the help, but no thanks. Let me stay, as Comrade Escalona says, in my peaceful tribunal. Look Commander, first of all, when this competition was first suggested, it was done because everyone who worked in one way or another on this project felt it would be one step closer to solving the problem of assessing judges. Over the years and in various reports, deficiencies in the work were seen. Many of them were of a technical nature. 52. I believe that the role of the judge is of such a nature that [words indistinct] justice affects not only the person involved, for example a penal case against the accused, a civil suit, etc., but it goes beyond this. It affects society. The social effects will be better as the judges' decisions are more just and of a better quality. We must by all means look for the social efficiency of the application of law in our country. 53. How can we say that we are not going to approve the competition system, which proves the qualifications of an attorney to become judge, because we do not have judges who want to submit to that? I would think this is because they do not have the technical qualifications to be judges. It would be better not to have judges than to have them under these conditions. I believe that we might think this step is risky, that we are going to have problems, that we are going to have difficulties in finding them, but I believe it is necessary. 54. [Castro] You are referring to the technical and moral qualifications. 55. [Amaro] Yes, that is a given. 56. [Castro] I even think that with our conditions someone could have less responsibility and perhaps a better income by being a collective office attorney than being a judge. You really need to be dedicated to be a judge. Someone needs to like the task and ask to judge. The economic incentive is not there, and it cannot be there. We cannot give a judge a supersalary like that of the man earning 1,000 pesos. 57. What would you do if you were unable to find enough judges? 58. [Amaro] I would simply have to work with the ones I have. I would rather work with the ones I have than simply to have people who do not want to be judges or who are not qualified to be judges. I think it is a matter of honor and pride that any of us judges in this country are elected by an ANPP to become judges. That is greater than anything to us. We also have to respond to the trust placed in us by acting properly. I would tell you that if I was unable find another judge and the ones I have or the ones our country has are the current judges, we will have to make do with those until we have judges who not only have the moral condition and the wish to become a judge, but also the qualifications so they can properly carry out their responsibilities. 59. [Olga Lydia Junes] I can assure the ANPP that the economic factor is the least important one in this transition from attorneys to judges. Ideally, the collective law office is not the only source for judges. There are legal advisers in the enterprises who are well-trained. It may be possible that when the books and programs are published and those people can be trained, they can aspire to becoming judges. 60. [Junes] I believe that to look at this problem as a salary problem would be too simplistic. It involves other things. People should study and aspire to becoming judges. Within the legal profession, I would say this is the most honorable occupation and best-recognized from the social viewpoint. It is also the most important one. 61. [Castro] More than physicians? 62. [Junes] More than what? 63. [Castro] Than physicians. 64. [Junes] No, Commander. I am comparing the judge with the attorney and the prosecutor. I would say it is equal to the doctor. A judge that improperly sends a man to serve six months of imprisonment does the same thing as a doctor who kills a patient through malpractice. This is why we have to aspire to have good judges who are capable of .... 65. [Castro, interrupting] You are saying that the profession of judge has great social prestige. This is what you are saying. 66. [Junes] Yes. 67. [Castro] I agree. I agree that they have social prestige and a very important responsibility. It can even become greater. I thought that you were comparing attorneys in general. Attorneys have not gained as much social prestige as those in other professions. The attorney has always been seen as a briefless lawyer. This is not the case with our lawyers. I do not have this opinion of our lawyers. Much less when I have had contacts with law students. I thought they were very good people. Fine, the point brought up by Bartolo has been discussed. I do not think we need to discuss it further. We need to submit this to the sovereign assembly. [passage omitted] 68. It is not a matter of the thief, the one that broke in and robbed. It is a matter of managers or workers in the units. Of course, the main responsibility for whatever happens in one of those places lies with the chief, even when he supervises only three people. There is always an accomplice in the cases we know about; there is always a corrupt person, someone who is bribed, or the person in charge wants to do something. 69. There can be a case in which nothing is detected as missing, but there is still theft. If the citizens are supposed to get 50 scoops of ice cream, they give them 53 and keep the difference. [sentence as heard] All that is possible. 70. The thing is to look for ideas that can be implemented in a practical way and with the participation of those involved--I understand that what is affected most is not the population, but the economy in general. The residents of the area may not be affected. If someone steals a pound of something from the warehouse or anyplace, he may not be stealing from a neighbor but he is stealing from everyone else because he is reducing the country's resources; he is stealing from the state; he is damaging our society. This is why it is important to find the answer to these problems. 71. I believe this is related to what has been said about giving more power to the delegates, more possibilities, more authority, more participation. This has been discussed quite a bit during the assembly. [passage omitted] -END-